Field Recording & Blumlein Mount

[siderealxxx]

Hello... I took out my H4n Pro today to capture pine-wood wind and it sounded great in situ but the recorded results are a little thin and distant.

I'm wondering whether taking my 414s out will yield better results? If I do that I'd quite like to use them as a Blumlein pair as it gives such a great 360 degree range.

Can anyone recommend an easy/cheap way of mounting 2x 414s in Blumlein on a single pole that I can mount on a single stand that I can carry? The few that I can see for sale are very expensive for what they are!

Any thoughts on this?! Thanks

[Drew Stephenson]

One of these little cheap mic extension bars https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... KeEALw_wcB

Gives you a rig like this:

[siderealxxx]

One of these little cheap mic extension bars https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... KeEALw_wcB

Gives you a rig like this:

Thanks, that's exactly the kind of creative (and affordable) solution I was looking for! Handy to have too, will get this on order.

Does anyone have any views on whether the 414s will give better results than the onboard H4n mics given the preamp limitation?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I suspect it sounds thin and distant because the sound sources were relatively distant, and the LF is probably rolled off to minimise handling and wind noise. It might be worth checking the recording settings in the zoom recorder in case there are better options.

Obviously, C414s are much better mics than those built into the recorder, but the best mic in the world sounds terrible with wind blowing across it, so effective windshields is critically important. Foam windshields aren't usually adequate, and you'll need something like the traditional zeppelin and furry cover.... which would have to be beach-ball sized to cover two C414s!

As Drew says, a guitar clamp is a convenient and low cost option for supporting one mic below another.

Another option for 360 degree pickup is back-to-back cardioids, which doesn't suffer the out-of-phase zones of a Blumlein pair.

[siderealxxx]

I suspect it sounds thin and distant because the sound sources were relatively distant, and the LF is probably rolled off to minimise handling and wind noise. It might be worth checking the recording settings in the zoom recorder in case there are better options.

Obviously, C414s are much better mics than those built into the recorder, but the best mic in the world sounds terrible with wind blowing across it, so effective windshields is critically important. Foam windshields aren't usually adequate, and you'll need something like the traditional zeppelin and furry cover.... which would have to be beach-ball sized to cover two C414s!

As Drew says, a guitar clamp is a convenient and low cost option for supporting one mic below another.

Another option for 360 degree pickup is back-to-back cardioids, which doesn't suffer the out-of-phase zones of a Blumlein pair.

The results weren't terrible, it's just always odd going from a huge three dimensional environment into a small stereo one!

I will test the 414s anyway and compare with the onboard mics. I only have the foam windshields but direct wind wasn't a huge issue as I was low down and sheltered.

I never thought of doing B2B cardiods as a 360 degree option. Will compare that too. Thanks!

[Arpangel]

How about an MS pair in a blimp, easy to carry, gets rid of wind noise, plus great control over the spatial aspects, or, for good "realism" a Dummy Head, easy enough to make.
But the mic's will make a big difference, using built in ones is never a good idea, only if you have absolutely no alternatives.

[Wonks]

How about an MS pair in a blimp, easy to carry, gets rid of wind noise, plus great control over the spatial aspects, or, for good "realism" a Dummy Head, easy enough to make.

But unless you use two fig-8 mics, with MS, you don't get the 360° sound pickup Siderealxxx wants.

[Arpangel]

How about an MS pair in a blimp, easy to carry, gets rid of wind noise, plus great control over the spatial aspects, or, for good "realism" a Dummy Head, easy enough to make.

But unless you use two fig-8 mics, with MS, you don't get the 360° sound pickup Siderealxxx wants.

I was thinking an MS pair may give a more solid focused sound, less thin and distant, at the expense of that 360 effect, but I wouldn’t automatically use a Blumlein pair to record something like this.
And if you use two fig 8's in an MS pair, again, it makes mounting large and unwieldy, MS in it's original form is nice and compact for field recording.

[Drew Stephenson]

If you use an omni for your mid you effectively get the same pattern as back to back cardiods.

[Arpangel]

If you use an omni for your mid you effectively get the same pattern as back to back cardiods.

Yes! I think we’ve tried all sorts of combinations with MS with varying results, depending.

[Hugh Robjohns]

But unless you use two fig-8 mics, with MS, you don't get the 360° sound pickup Siderealxxx wants.

You would if you use an omni for the Mid microphone. Decodes to the equivalent of back-to-back cardioids.... which is handy!

EDIT — apologies. I see Drew got that fact in first!

And if you want something that can be converted into a 4.0, 5.0, or 5.1 format easily, the MSM (aka Double-MS) works particularly well, all while sitting nicely in a conveniently sized windshield.

[Wonks]

You would if you use an omni for the Mid microphone. Decodes to the equivalent of back-to-back cardioids.... which is handy!

But in this situation where there in no particular source to record, but sound from all around, if you didn't want to emphasise the sound coming from the direction of the side mic axis, then you'd turn the sides mic down and end up basically with the omni.

And if you want something that can be converted into a 4.0, 5.0, or 5.1 format easily, the MSM (aka Double-MS) works particularly well, all while sitting nicely in a conveniently sized windshield.

This would seem a better solution than above for particular situation, but then it seems to me that you may as well be better off getting a full ambisonic mic setup.

[Hugh Robjohns]

But in this situation where there in no particular source to record, but sound from all around, if you didn't want to emphasise the sound coming from the direction of the side mic axis, then you'd turn the sides mic down and end up basically with the omni.

I dont think you've thought that through... Try it (with a realistic Side level) and see if it 'emphasises' the Side mic axis.

But there are other options. Personally, for ambient sounds like this, I prefer spaced omnis or binaural techniques. The classic 'DPA lavaliers on a coat-hanger' solution works very well. Lots of vague stereo spaciousness without precise imagining to potentially distract.

[Arpangel]

the MSM (aka Double-MS) works particularly well, all while sitting nicely in a conveniently sized windshield.

This is what I'm saying, a large diaphragm fig 8 Blumlein pair is unwieldy.

[siderealxxx]

This post blew up a bit! Just to rein it in a little I only have a matched pair 414s to work with (and don't want to hire anything).

I can also track on the H4n easily enough (though battery is an issue with +48v), or I could take out my MacBook and NI interface, but it starts to get cumbersome in the field. There are practical limitations to work with.

MS ideally need two stands which will be difficult (and on uneven ground), but if I'm not mistaken could be mounted exactly the same as a Blumlein pair on a single stand with the aforementioned mount (which I have on order)?

The only thing that would change in this array (as opposed to Blumlein) would be putting the mid mic in omni mode instead of fig 8 (and decoding obviously). Is that right?

Spaced omni could be nice but again I'd need two stands and perhaps there's less integrity in the positioning (?).

If I'm right about the MS/Blumlein question then I can easily choose between them with some basic tests and work with what I've got?!

[Hugh Robjohns]

MS is just a variation of XY (Blumlein) — two mics, one above the other. Both formats (and more) can be achieved using one stand and cheap hardware like a stereo bars (smaller and lighter than a boom arm), guitar clamps, and the like.

You can rig two fig-8s as Blumlein (facing 45° left/right) or as MS (facing forward/left). Or you could change the forward mic to Omni for an alternative 360° pickup format.

With a longish stereo bar (30-60cm), you could also rig as spaced omnis which also give a 360° pickup, but a much less 'precise' soundstage which works better in some applications (and not as good in others)... it depends what you're trying to achieve.

Omni mode will be significantly less susceptible to wind noise than any other polar pattern (and fig-8 will be worst).

For that reason, and given your lack of pukka outdoor windshields, I wouldn't be surprised if the Blumlien or MS equivalent with two fig-8s proves to be pretty rumbly.

If that's the case, you might find the Omni mid is a more practical option because it will be less susceptible to wind noise, and you can high-pass (low-cut) the Side mic before the decoder to minimise windnoise on the fig-8. That will give mono bass, which is often a good thing anyway, but stereo mids and highs. The high-pass can be set surprisingly high if necessary, without affecting the stereo detrimentally.

[Sam Spoons]

Surely M/S would work with a single straight stand plus the guitar mic adapter mentioned above? Sure a spaced pair of omnis is a bit trickier to manage but should still be possible with a single stand and a spacer bar. As your 414's are multi pattern it shouldn't be too hard to carry enough different adapters and such like to experiment with all the options?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Surely M/S would work with a single straight stand plus the guitar mic adapter mentioned above?

It depends if the mic adapter will extend far enough to align the stand mic with the one on the guitar adapter (K&M 238).

The K&M 24050 is a lot more versatile, but twice the price.

[Sam Spoons]

I like the look of that, maybe I need one