When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by alexis »

amanise wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 7:24 am Repetition in itself hasn't changed much over time if you think about it in its own right. It's always been taught as the key to embedding lyrics in the listeners brain. There was even very commonly a tendency to write just 2 verses and just repeat the first one at the end. Probably up a tone. It's all stuff I miss which seems to happen less now in the new genres - but that most likely only seems that way to me because I don't listen to that much western music of the last 30 years.

Dylan stayed immune, by and large. Then again, he wasn't much for key changes!

Looking forward to seeing the new movie!
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by MOF »

There was even very commonly a tendency to write just 2 verses and just repeat the first one at the end

That seems like a cop out to me, I like to have some sort of story or variation on the theme of the song. I sometimes have different lyrics in part or whole to the chorus too.
I don’t feel the need to modulate but I do like a bridge or middle eight and hopefully a catchy intro and outro.
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by Drew Stephenson »

MOF wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 11:50 am That seems like a cop out to me, I like to have some sort of story or variation on the theme of the song. I sometimes have different lyrics in part or whole to the chorus too.
I don’t feel the need to modulate but I do like a bridge or middle eight and hopefully a catchy intro and outro.

Yeah, that's my take too. Coming back to a single line or phrase (or a variant / subversion of it) can be a neat way of wrapping up the story but repeating a whole verse feels like a lack of effort. ;)

Or you can do the Mungo Jerry approach and just have the second half of the song be identical to the first...
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by amanise »

Well, they all sold a lot more copies than anything I ever did :lol:
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by merlyn »

I know that music theory isn't a strong point around here, but as far as I am aware it's not possible to change the key of lyrics.
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by Kwackman »

merlyn wrote: Tue Jan 21, 2025 3:38 pm I know that music theory isn't a strong point around here, but as far as I am aware it's not possible to change the key of lyrics.

What if you're singing them....
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by DGL. »

Well if you want to complain about the effort put in to lyrics then Nik Kershaw rears his head again, The Riddle was minimal effort lyric writing!
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by merlyn »

The same four chords going over and over is not a new form, so yes repetition is a staple of pop music. There's Stand By Me from 1961, which is I vi IV V all the way through. But it doesn't ever repeat verbatim. There's something different each time through. It builds up in what I've called the 'ramp' form elsewhere.

Coming in at 2:57 this is pure pop, designed for radio and jukeboxes. It was a big hit, and I would think that trying to have a hit is part of what makes pop pop. If you're not trying to have a hit, is it pop?
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by MOF »

I know that music theory isn't a strong point around here, but as far as I am aware it's not possible to change the key of lyrics.

Do happy and sad lyrics count? :lol:
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by merlyn »

The lyrical equivalent of a key change, i.e. the same material presented differently, is using a different vocalist. Duet anyone?
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by alexis »

I did a lot of driving yesterday, and intentionally listened to a lot of current hits. I was very impressed with the way they were produced to keep one's attention through almost every moment of the typical three-ish minute song, almost entirely done through repeated introduction of extremely abrupt changes, usually in the direction of minimizing production techniques, at least to the degree I was able to assess all this.

These included especially, IMO, abrupt changes/minimizing of dynamics (including the ultimate minimizing dynamic change - abrupt introduction of silence), as well as brief dropping out of reverb, stereo width, harmony voices, and vocal effects.

It seemed to me that after the (often very brief) minimizing changes there was a return to the full production of a moment ago, to a very satisfying effect.

Very few chord changes in most of the music of course, and "middle eights" were as rare as hen's teeth.

I thought more than once, what a killer song it would be that combined today's production techniques with the musicality of a few decades ago!

But then I realized probably the only person who would feel this way is one whose idea of what music is was imprinted on their neutral circuits a few decades ago! :lol::lol:
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by Sam Inglis »

I wonder if there's a useful distinction to be made between key changes that are part of the composition, and key changes that are part of the arrangement.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned 'I Will Always Love You', which is a good example. The original version by Dolly Parton doesn't have any key changes. They were added in the arrangement of the Whitney Houston version, which may be why they feel a bit superfluous.

Contrast with, say, 'Dizzy' by Tommy Roe, where the key changes are fundamental to the song.
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by OneWorld »

alexis wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 12:24 pm I did a lot of driving yesterday, and intentionally listened to a lot of current hits. I was very impressed with the way they were produced to keep one's attention through almost every moment of the typical three-ish minute song, almost entirely done through repeated introduction of extremely abrupt changes, usually in the direction of minimizing production techniques, at least to the degree I was able to assess all this.

These included especially, IMO, abrupt changes/minimizing of dynamics (including the ultimate minimizing dynamic change - abrupt introduction of silence), as well as brief dropping out of reverb, stereo width, harmony voices, and vocal effects.

It seemed to me that after the (often very brief) minimizing changes there was a return to the full production of a moment ago, to a very satisfying effect.

Very few chord changes in most of the music of course, and "middle eights" were as rare as hen's teeth.

I thought more than once, what a killer song it would be that combined today's production techniques with the musicality of a few decades ago!

But then I realized probably the only person who would feel this way is one whose idea of what music is was imprinted on their neutral circuits a few decades ago! :lol::lol:

I agree, especially with the point regarding "I thought more than once, what a killer song it would be that combined today's production techniques with the musicality of a few decades ago! "

And have on the occasion extemporized on that topic and wondered, what would Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Debussy, Liszt, Stravinsky, Gershwin et al have done with Cubase etc ? Look at Bach for instance when confronted with the new fangled Well Tempered Klavier, or was it the piano-forte - a keyboard that allowed dynamics! He went out and wrote 48 Preludes and Fugues !

I think today's musicians spend as much time learning their craft, but these days spend more time on production, clever use of effects, but far less on learning an instrument, they don't need to, and the results can be quite impressive and enjoyable, as you say. That being said, to watch a virtuoso perform some tortuous piece, that makes one exclaim "This is surely at the zenith of human ability" that is enjoyable not just because of the artistic dexterity, but because it happens to be a knock out tune as well, takes some beating.

I listen to Radio 3 of a night time especially, because there's a great jazz programme that endeavours to showcase contemporary jazz, and quite impressive content there is without question, but I do wish they'd step out of their comfort zone, they are accomplished performers, and unshackle themselves from the 2 chord loop, that would indeed lend itself too a more interesting listen, especially when complimented by equally compelling production.

I try and experiment with different chords/keys, not just for the sake of it I hasten to add, but to make it a more interesting writing exercise and listening to of course. And on the occasion stumble across some quirky results, often by accident I must admit. But when I come to add the vocal parts, my inconsistent chording, might serve as a reasonable homage to Shoenberg and other atonalists, but trying to sing chromatic major to minor compound chords, augmented 4ths, diminished 9ths etc is way beyond my ability and often has me going back to the song and stripping it bare, and reminding myself of the old adage KISS there's a reason a pop song is relatively simple (ok yes there may be the awesome solo) , it isn't meant to be an example of soaring musical acrobatics with a wizardry of dexterity, but something your man/woman/et al on the Clapham Omnibus can whistle along to, connect with, assimilate to, as they go about their day, whether jogging, grafting, selling fish and chips, skateboarding, hammering in nails and mixing cement, falling in and out of love and driving along etc they shouldn't need to be able to sing along with Pavarotti, as if life weren't difficult enough for them as it were, so give 'em something simple That's what I tell myself, but then again, when did I ever listen to my own advice :headbang:
Last edited by OneWorld on Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by alexis »

Sam Inglis wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 1:54 pmI wonder if there's a useful distinction to be made between key changes that are part of the composition, and key changes that are part of the arrangement.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned 'I Will Always Love You', which is a good example. The original version by Dolly Parton doesn't have any key changes. They were added in the arrangement of the Whitney Houston version, which may be why they feel a bit superfluous.

Contrast with, say, 'Dizzy' by Tommy Roe, where the key changes are fundamental to the song.


IMHO that is a key distinction (sorry about that), "composition vs. arrangement". In terms of Beatleology, it's like the difference between the half key upward shift in "And I Love Her" (brought up by someone recently, perhaps in this thread?), apparently done to squeeze another verse and chorus out of an otherwise very short song, and the smooooth harmonic gymnastics in "Here, There, and Everywhere", starting in the root key of G, venturing briefly into E ("F#m and B7 chords at "... wave of her hand") to the B section (C section?) where it transforms in one beautiful beat into the key of Bb (OMG, that beautiful and glorious F7 chord on "... want" just knocks me to the floor every time!).

OK, sorry, I'll stop now, Oh I see I didn't take my anti- Beatles meds this morning, whoops! :lol: .

What I #meant# to say is (but I got sidetracked!), "Great example, Tommy Roe's "Dizzy" - the whole song is just one machine-gunned key change after another - definitely ear candy of an early type!".
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by Drew Stephenson »

OneWorld wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 2:23 pm I think today's musicians spend as much time learning their craft, but these days spend more time on production, clever use of effects, but far less on learning an instrument, they don't need to, and the results can be quite impressive and enjoyable, as you say.

I think part of this is probably down to the environment they're operating in now. It's not enough to be a brilliant musician to attract the attention of a label and/or allow a transition to being a full time artist; you also have to be able create your own following. This requires learning how to record, edit, mix, produce, and market both your music and the rest of the content you need for a successful social media platform.

There are only so many hours in the day and the aspiring musician now has a huge number of (sometimes competing) demands on their available time. Ironically the thing that is most likely to slip, whilst being least likely to be noticed, is actual musicianship.
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by Chet Leeway »

Mainstream pop is very much about the surface of the sound, ear candy, production tricks and catchy phrases. But the not-very-alternative scene is brimming with all sorts of different apporaches. The young gentlemen in The Lemon Twigs should appeal to at least some SOS forum members:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCI2lLVwYhI

Key changes, singable melodies, vocal harmonies, analogue synths, Hohner bass, proper musicianship ...

They've been doing it for almost a decade, and they're only twenty-somethings who wouldn't be able to grow a beard. Apparently their dad was a very gifted but commercially unsuccessful musician in the seventies.
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by Nazard »

Look at Bach for instance when confronted with the new fangled Well Tempered Klavier, or was it the piano-forte - a keyboard that allowed dynamics! He went out and wrote 48 Preludes and Fugues !


Temperament is a fascinating area to study: is equal temperament always 'right'? For example, many large and important English organs were still tuned in unequal temperament until the end of the nineteenth century.

You can trace equal temperament tuning back to Aristoxenus in 350bc.
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by alexis »

Chet Leeway wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:11 pm Mainstream pop is very much about the surface of the sound, ear candy, production tricks and catchy phrases. But the not-very-alternative scene is brimming with all sorts of different apporaches. The young gentlemen in The Lemon Twigs should appeal to at least some SOS forum members:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCI2lLVwYhI

Key changes, singable melodies, vocal harmonies, analogue synths, Hohner bass, proper musicianship ...

They've been doing it for almost a decade, and they're only twenty-somethings who wouldn't be able to grow a beard. Apparently their dad was a very gifted but commercially unsuccessful musician in the seventies.

I'm about to take a very long train ride, Chet ... I look forward to checking them out!
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by OneWorld »

Nazard wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:41 pm
Look at Bach for instance when confronted with the new fangled Well Tempered Klavier, or was it the piano-forte - a keyboard that allowed dynamics! He went out and wrote 48 Preludes and Fugues !


Temperament is a fascinating area to study: is equal temperament always 'right'? For example, many large and important English organs were still tuned in unequal temperament until the end of the nineteenth century.

You can trace equal temperament tuning back to Aristoxenus in 350bc.

I have oft wondered what it would be like to play a klavier that had a bad temper :bouncy:
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by merlyn »

The Well Tempered Klavier is what Bach called the collection of 48 preludes and fugues. There are two volumes, the first book being 24 preludes and fugues, one in each major, and one in each minor key. It's not like an instrument maker came up with a new instrument. It's the same (twangy) harpsichord with the tuning pegs shifted ever so slightly.

Bach was a big part of the adoption of tempered tuning. If all 24 preludes and fugues could be played on an instrument, and it didn't sound like the clatterings of hell, then the instrument was in tempered tuning.
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by awjoe »

Sam Inglis wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 1:54 pm I wonder if there's a useful distinction to be made between key changes that are part of the composition, and key changes that are part of the arrangement.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned 'I Will Always Love You', which is a good example. The original version by Dolly Parton doesn't have any key changes. They were added in the arrangement of the Whitney Houston version, which may be why they feel a bit superfluous.

Contrast with, say, 'Dizzy' by Tommy Roe, where the key changes are fundamental to the song.

Yes. The shift up near the end of the song is obvious, and can come across as transparently manipulative of a musically unsophisticated listener. A cheap trick, almost. (But if it works, it works.)

But speaking of musically unsophisticated listeners... 'Dizzy' is a great tune, and the key changes work AND they communicate the feeling of dizzy the song's talking about. I really like it. But earlier in the thread, someone referenced 'Some Folks Lives Roll Easy' by Paul Simon, which does similar in-song key shifting very skillfully. I bought that album when it came out, because his first two solo outings were genius. But that song didn't work so well for me, because for my musically simple ear, it never seemed to 'settle down' into something. It didn't satisfy the way, for example, 'Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover' did. I needed music that was less clever and more obvious. Was it his fault he was so clever? Was it my fault I wasn't?

Conclusion: The end-of-tune shift up a notch for excitement is often too obvious for my taste, but in-song key changes (Nik Kershaw style, eg) can leave me behind. Tommy Roe? Just right lol.
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by forumuser844936 »

SecretSam wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2025 6:14 pm If you want to leave space for the sounds to develop, or if you want to avoid your arrangement turning to mush under the weight of filters, distortion, modulation, delays and discarded pizza boxes ... or whatever... it might be a smart choice to simplify the harmony and thin out the chords.

Thin out the sounds not the chords , you're thinking like an amateur who prioritizes mixing and production! Ironically, reading too much web forums will lead you there (astray)!

Forget "phat" sounds and all that, in reality everything should be thin but clear except 1-2 sounds in the arrangement that you may want to emphasize.
Moreover sound design is actually more difficult than writing music, in most popular music there's minimum, if any sound design whatsoever coming from the artist, artists were responsible for music and lyrics.

In general i think after the 80s music industry shifted focus from pop music to having no particular focus in the 90s (except grunge i guess) and then shift to hip hop in the 00s = cheap productions.

Also the 90s made minimalism mainstream, exploring sampler made loops and electronic music.

Techno music brought the DJ era, promoting minimalism even more.

Too much minimalism nowadays, it's a hack, less is only more when you know what more is, music shouldn't be about shooting in the dark.

Having said that , apparent pop music key changes aka Celine Dion & Whitney Houston may work for them and in a certain context but it's not for spamming around for me , i much prefer coloration and modulation (which maybe the op means).
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by Sam Inglis »

Is anyone familiar with the Scott Walker song 'The Seventh Seal'? That has a couple of unprepared key changes where everything slides up a semitone. It works perfectly for the song and doesn't sound at all lazy or cliched. In fact I'd argue it's used quite cleverly to mark the moments where one lyrical 'scene' gives way to the next, like a hard edit in a film (and of course it is based on a film).
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Just listening to it now. I like how it works but the strings moving up feels a bit off to me somehow, almost like it's actually drawing more attention to it.

But that might just be because I'm listening for it of course! :D
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Re: When, and why did key changes go out of fashion?

Post by sc1460 »

Sam Inglis wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 7:39 pm Is anyone familiar with the Scott Walker song 'The Seventh Seal'? That has a couple of unprepared key changes where everything slides up a semitone. It works perfectly for the song and doesn't sound at all lazy or cliched. In fact I'd argue it's used quite cleverly to mark the moments where one lyrical 'scene' gives way to the next, like a hard edit in a film (and of course it is based on a film).


No never heard it, but thanks for mentioning it, the changes are quite clever, I shall play it to an artist tomorrow for inspiration. So much space in that production!
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