Guitar in tune but yet not?

[IAA]

I’m working on putting some simple chords and a piece of music which so far has some simple piano, basic drum beat and Hammond. Trouble is my electric guitar although tunes spot on just sounds a bit “ off” when I drop from a barred at third fret G to a similar barred at first second Bm. I’ve checked tuning is fine, intonation is fine. I’m picking the notes but they’re just making my ear sit up, not a major de tune but I notice it. I’m not fretting too hard I think and my technique is not crap just wondered if there’s another thing to look at. I’m sure it’s more my playing than the guitar but just wondered.

Cheers

Ian

[BigRedX]

That's the problem with fretted instruments with equal temperament tuning to allow them to be played in all keys. It tends to be noticeable on 3rds in a chord. Some guitarists will get around this by adjusting the tuning of the problematic string(s) to always be very slightly flat and then bending them to the correct pitch. This requires more technique than I have, so I normally try and avoid the 3rd in a chord and either just play the root and 5th or add something that sounds less dissonant, to me, like a 9th.

[IAA]

Yes I wondered about that, I could just try different inversions I guess, but I have to say I wondered whether the nut slots were a little high. But that might be a red herring I end up chasing……

[Wonks]

That’s life. No guitar tuning system is perfect and unless you tune for a particular key, there will always be some notes that aren’t quite right.

There are obviously ‘mechanical’ issues on guitars where the frets aren’t positioned in exactly the right place, or they are worn in places or the crown isn’t exactly in the middle.

The higher the action, the more variation in string tension you get as you move up and down the neck.

And different playing styles will give slightly different tunings depending on how much pressure each finger is putting on each string.

[ef37a]

"There are obviously ‘mechanical’ issues on guitars where the frets aren’t positioned in exactly the right place, or they are worn in places or the crown isn’t exactly in the middle."

Yes indeed Wonks and we had a gross example of this many years ago. Son had bought himself a second hand Rickenbacker 330 but after just a day bashing out his Beatles songs he came to me and said "the second fret is out of place dad"

Putting it up against another guitar it was obvious, the "F# E string" fret was about a mm further from the F than it should be.

Naturally it fell to dad to take it back to the shop but they were very good about it. Got it back about a week later and there was just a faint mark where the old fret had been. 30 years on son says you can hardly tell now.

BTW, might be worth trying a new set of strings?

Dave.

[merlyn]

What is a tuner saying about it? If you finger a chord and play the notes one-by-one into a tuner are they in tune?

[shufflebeat]

My favourite “tuner on your phone” is Airyware tuner which. anpart from being a really good tuner, offers “sweetened tunings” that help iron out some of the Newtonian nastiness. The accompanying graphics amazing also give a good representation of the tweakery involved.

iOS & Android.

[adrian_k]

Thanks for that recommendation, well worth the £4.99

[Murray B]

My approach to this kind of thing is to tune the guitar as normal and then play the chords and adjust the tuning by ear to get the best out of each chord on average. Essentially tuning to the key.

As Dave said it is worth checking the guitar - divots in the frets / the nut slots are too high / intonation - as this will make the whole tuning to the key thing a whole lot less predictable.

Edit to add - you questioned about the nut slots being high - that could be making things worse if it is. Have you got any feeler gauges - what clearance do you have between the strings and the first fret?

[IAA]

What is a tuner saying about it? If you finger a chord and play the notes one-by-one into a tuner are they in tune?

Yes they seem to be certainly the Barred F and open C major Bm.

Have you got any feeler gauges - what clearance do you have between the strings and the first fret?

String to first Fret ( without any capo anywhere) is .45mm.

As Dave said it is worth checking the guitar - divots in the frets / the nut slots are too high / intonation - as this will make the whole tuning to the key thing a whole lot less predictable.

Frets are good its a 2024 Epiphany Les Paul Modern - so not real wear yet.

BTW, might be worth trying a new set of strings?

They are newish strings - I did them Christmas time Im sure - Ernie Ball Super Slinkies which is what Ive used forever. Could change them again.

One thing I have noticed is the String winding on the A Tuner is for some reason not very long - only a couple of winds - Im not sure why I left so little String for the post???

Could be this I'm a wondering?

Thanks All

Ian

[adrian_k]

What is a tuner saying about it? If you finger a chord and play the notes one-by-one into a tuner are they in tune?

Yes they seem to be certainly the Barred F and open C major Bm.

If the fretted notes/chords are in tune according to your tuner, and the open strings are also in tune, then it doesn’t sound likely that it’s a setup or machine head/winding issue.

Possibly look at your technique when you are actually performing? Eg I know that I need to take care of playing my 6th string sometimes, I have a tendency to pull it sharp especially since the arthritis kicked in.

[Sam Spoons]

A couple of winds is fine (2 - 3 full turns is pretty much optimal) more problems arise from too many turns IME.

WRT tuning and nut issues, could it be the strings sticking in the nut groove?

Hight from the first fret is best measured with a capo at 3rd to represent how much higher the nut is than the lower frets. The nut (or zero fret if you had one) is usually higher than the rest of the frets to avoid the non-speaking part of the string buzzing on the frets behind the fretting finger.

[IAA]

Thanks Adrian, I’ve checked my other guitars too and I’m thinking it is a technique issue. What I think I’m doing (I’ve just recorded and videod myself playing) is because it’s more or less just some guitar picking (with some shimmery reverb) at this point and I move quickly through those barred chords I’m pressing harder then I do when I just play and am not recording. I’m so intent on making the picks clean and ringing I’m ever so slightly sharpening one or more of the notes and the reverb is hardly helping. Frustratingly I run through the piece several times perfectly but once record is pressed I subliminally start pressing harder.

I’m sure this is it. A workman a looking to blame his tools! Thanks!

Ian

[Drew Stephenson]

Frustratingly I run through the piece several times perfectly but once record is pressed I subliminally start pressing harder.

Red light fever. I know it well.
Try recording it in shorter chunks, then when you're happy with a take from each chunk, relax a bit a record the whole thing.

[ef37a]

Thanks Adrian, I’ve checked my other guitars too and I’m thinking it is a technique issue. What I think I’m doing (I’ve just recorded and videod myself playing) is because it’s more or less just some guitar picking (with some shimmery reverb) at this point and I move quickly through those barred chords I’m pressing harder then I do when I just play and am not recording. I’m so intent on making the picks clean and ringing I’m ever so slightly sharpening one or more of the notes and the reverb is hardly helping. Frustratingly I run through the piece several times perfectly but once record is pressed I subliminally start pressing harder.

I’m sure this is it. A workman a looking to blame his tools! Thanks!

Ian

Ah yes, technique! My son had a problem with squeaks playing classical guitar a few months pre Covid. The guy that made his guitar told him it was his technique. You have to lift off, move. press down. He also told him that you must use the EXACT amount of pressure or, yes, you get intonation problems.

He spent lockdowns working on these things and now says he is much better.

Dave.

[merlyn]

Heavier strings would help. They bend out of tune less. If you do go up a gauge, you will need to redo the intonation.

If you like light strings, e.g. for bending, then yes, a light touch is required. For the jazz gigs that I do, I'm playing a guitar with 13s. They ain't going nowhere tuning wise. I wouldn't think it's feasible to go from 9s to 13s, but you could go up a gauge.

[resistorman]

I've been using a Peterson clip-on tuner and it has settings for "sweetened tuning", which is worth a lookup. I'm a convert

[adrian_k]

I knew about the James Taylor sweetened tuning but never got round to trying it because as someone else said I tend to tweak the tuning by ear depending on the key.

But since I’ve just downloaded the Airywave tuner and it has sweetened tunings as an option, I’ve tried it and I think I may also be a convert. I’ll give it a go for a while anyway.

[Wonks]

I use the Peterson iStroboscope app, which I think is great for basic tuning. More expensive than some and there are quite a few add-on packs for it now for tuning different instruments in sweetened tunings etc.

But unlike many, it does tell you the full note name e.g. E2 or D3, which is most useful when restringing from scratch and you don't want to over-tighten a string and risk it snapping.

[merlyn]

This is an example of a sweetened tuning I saw:

E1 = -2.3 cent
B2 = 0
G3 = 0
D4 = -0.4 Cent
A5 = -2.1 Cent
E6 = -2.3 Cent

Given that the frets themselves are laid out in 12TET, no thanks.

[IAA]

Red light fever. I know it well.
Try recording it in shorter chunks, then when you're happy with a take from each chunk, relax a bit a record the whole thing.

Ended up doing this Drew. 2 bars at a time got some great chords and then did a few passes over a longer section much better knowing I had a few "saved" chords that were perfect to drop in if I fluffed it.

I've been using a Peterson clip-on tuner and it has settings for "sweetened tuning", which is worth a lookup. I'm a convert

Yes they do look smart with 50 sweetened tunings - although at 50 quid they're on the more expensive clip on ones - a polytune iis similarly priced.

Thanks

Ian

[Murray B]

The nut slots are not too high according to the measurement you made. So I don't think that's the issue.

[IAA]

E1 = -2.3 cent
B2 = 0
G3 = 0
D4 = -0.4 Cent
A5 = -2.1 Cent
E6 = -2.3 Cent

Given that the frets themselves are laid out in 12TET, no thanks.

Interesting - I watched a YouTube vid yesterday of a (pro) player showing his own sweetened tunings from perfect. They looked quite extreme to me (-6 cents on a couple of the higher strings)

Ian

[Sam Spoons]

Could a high action/nut and/or lighter strings explain that to some degree?

[merlyn]

Interesting - I watched a YouTube vid yesterday of a (pro) player showing his own sweetened tunings from perfect. They looked quite extreme to me (-6 cents on a couple of the higher strings)

Was there distortion involved? With distortion the upper harmonics and inharmonicity become more important. Inharmonicity is when harmonics are not exact integer multiples of the fundamental. Flattening the bottom strings could bring the harmonics back in.

Flattening strings also makes more sense than sharpening them, as a string can be pulled sharp to bring it back in, but can't be pulled flat.