New member, looking for expert advice

[EnDee]

Hello everyone,
I'm EnDee, and new to the forum.
I can't say I'm new to music; music is my hobby, and I've been composing for about the last 25 years in a wide range of genres. I'm self-taught in composing and audio engineering. I could not do music for about a decade, and restarted about 3 years back.

I managed to collect some new gear and work on improving my engineering skills for the last 3 years, and I feel like I have reached my top. I'm not sure if this is all I can do with my current set-up, or if I'm missing something, I feel like my outputs are not good enough.

I'm including links to my recent mixes. Can you please listen and give me some advice on how to improve them?

This is a Rock song
https://drive.google.com/file/d/152x11i ... sp=sharing

This is a HipHop/Pop song
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m1Pws0 ... sp=sharing

Both are in wave format, and I uploaded the high-resolution versions (96/24) since I want some serious feedback.

I use the following gears.

DAW: Reason 13
Plugins: Ozone 11
Hardware: Focusrite Scarlet solo
Monitors: PreSonus Eris 3.5

Thank you for the support in advance.
EnDee

[zenguitar]

Welcome to the SOS fora

You posted in the magazine feedback forum but you are seeking feedback on your mixes so I've moved your post to the mixing and mastering forum which is more appropriate.

Andy

[Drew Stephenson]

Some quick thoughts from a first listen:
Rock song - for me the balance here is more singer/songwriter or pop than rock. For something rockier the drums need to come up and really push the song along and the vocal needs to feel more like it's fighting to be on top. Get those supporting guitars cranked right out wide as well. And I'd make a few changes to how the solo is presented as well, at the moment it just kind of comes in and stays the same, it needs to grow as it progresses. Feels like the song could do with a bar or two to breathe after that.
Really nice, clean sounds though and plenty of space to it.
Hip-hop song - For me the overall balance on this is better. What I am hearing though is quite a lot of wide sounds but not much width created using panning. Pushing the supporting instruments right out wide will make a chunk of space in the middle for the vocal to really shine.

Smarter, more experienced people will be along shortly with better ideas I'm sure.

[OneWorld]

.........................Smarter, more experienced people will be along shortly with better ideas I'm sure.

And then there'll be me

[OneWorld]

I too think in the rock song that the drums seem meandering whereas in a rock song I sort of expect the drums to have some sort of momentum. We listen to different kinds of music in different ways, some we listen to in a benign manner and other music we are more inclined to move to. So the rock needs a solid bass and drums presence, with the vocals guitars taking the opportunity to create a more dynamic contribution.

The hip-hop track sounds more typical of the genre, though I think the bass should be more prominent. Both tracks sound clear, uncluttered and professional and more comments are more about arranging than engineering which I cannot say much about except they sound well done, you're on the right track I would say.

[EnDee]

Welcome to the SOS fora

You posted in the magazine feedback forum but you are seeking feedback on your mixes so I've moved your post to the mixing and mastering forum which is more appropriate.

Andy

Thank you very much. I'll keep that in mind.

[EnDee]

Some quick thoughts from a first listen:
Rock song - for me the balance here is more singer/songwriter or pop than rock. For something rockier the drums need to come up and really push the song along and the vocal needs to feel more like it's fighting to be on top. Get those supporting guitars cranked right out wide as well. And I'd make a few changes to how the solo is presented as well, at the moment it just kind of comes in and stays the same, it needs to grow as it progresses. Feels like the song could do with a bar or two to breathe after that.
Really nice, clean sounds though and plenty of space to it.
Hip-hop song - For me the overall balance on this is better. What I am hearing though is quite a lot of wide sounds but not much width created using panning. Pushing the supporting instruments right out wide will make a chunk of space in the middle for the vocal to really shine.

Smarter, more experienced people will be along shortly with better ideas I'm sure.

Thank you very much Drew. Yes, the first one not Rock-Rock, it's more Pop-Rock. Since my songs are in different genres, I'm trying to maintain the balance between them as well. Both these tracks are in the same album, so it's not wise to mix for the exact genre, right?

Thank you for the suggestions; I'm gonna try them out and will apply them to my other projects, too; very useful.

I feel like they sound too harsh and raw, instead of smooth and pleasant. Please give feedback on it, too.

Thanks again and best regards.

[EnDee]

I too think in the rock song that the drums seem meandering whereas in a rock song I sort of expect the drums to have some sort of momentum. We listen to different kinds of music in different ways, some we listen to in a benign manner and other music we are more inclined to move to. So the rock needs a solid bass and drums presence, with the vocals guitars taking the opportunity to create a more dynamic contribution.

The hip-hop track sounds more typical of the genre, though I think the bass should be more prominent. Both tracks sound clear, uncluttered and professional and more comments are more about arranging than engineering which I cannot say much about except they sound well done, you're on the right track I would say.

Thank you very much, OneWorld.

Could you please elaborate a bit more on creating momentum and more dynamic contribution?

Any thoughts on reducing the raw/harshness feel and making them smoother?

Best regards.

[amanise]

Welcome!

Good work - first of all!

Here are the notes I made on my way through the two tracks;

Rock song

Drums bigger: more punch on the kick, snare is a bit thin, maybe try some under side snare mic pickup if possible. Definitely more snare body from the EQ. Overall drum pattern is a bit sparse when the instrumentation gets busier. That density needs to pick up a little too.

The stop - depends what you're aiming at here. I'd be looking at leaving
some cymbals ringing quietly across the stop. It appears to go unnaturally silent here - which sounds oddly abrupt to me - but this might be what you're aiming at. If it were me, I'd have a China hit here that carries over the gap - and that would be it's only appearance in the song. I'd probably flange it too - but that's just me.

Overall, lovely feel with plenty of space. I think the vocal sits fine and suits
very well tonally. Maybe back off the de-essing a touch if that's possible. Some of The esses sound a bit thick, but it might be my ears.

Hip Hop song

Sounds very 'on genre' to me, not too heavy, not too light. It's not really my
genre but I might look at dropping out most of the instrumentation and just leave the vocal with either drums or bass later on somewhere - and then fill the hole back up again for the end choruses and outtro. Something like that. But it works very well to a non hip hopper like me as it is.

[OneWorld]

I too think in the rock song that the drums seem meandering whereas in a rock song I sort of expect the drums to have some sort of momentum. We listen to different kinds of music in different ways, some we listen to in a benign manner and other music we are more inclined to move to. So the rock needs a solid bass and drums presence, with the vocals guitars taking the opportunity to create a more dynamic contribution.

The hip-hop track sounds more typical of the genre, though I think the bass should be more prominent. Both tracks sound clear, uncluttered and professional and more comments are more about arranging than engineering which I cannot say much about except they sound well done, you're on the right track I would say.

Thank you very much, OneWorld.

Could you please elaborate a bit more on creating momentum and more dynamic contribution?

Any thoughts on reducing the raw/harshness feel and making them smoother?

Best regards.

Sure, but what I might suggest at this point is listen analytically to some classic rock tracks, or any that you consider to be of the production/arrangement/engineering you hope to inspire you. I single out instruments whilst listening to a song, just listen to drums, just listen to bass etc and try and identify any musical 'cliches' that are employed to make the song what it is.

That doesn't mean emulate the song, what would be the point, but try and identify what element of that song, pushes it along.

One mistake I often made when I started playing in bands,. was because previously I'd always played solo, I over played a part, yes it was technically impressive, but the song ended up being one long guitar solo with a vocalist trying to weave a song around it. I had to be told to play less!

That is not to say this is the case with your song, but I am merely illustrating a point, and I went back to listening analytically, as I'd done when playing classical music, I'd gone from classical guitar to playing rhythm guitar in a punk thrash band - well, would you ever. It taught me a simple lesson, the instrumentation is there to carry the vocals along, and the listener is carried along with it, and they need to be held by the hand with a sense of direction. Yes all that seems formulaic, but in general that is the nature of popular music.

So a song needs to be rock steady, get a firm backbeat going, get the song laid down in it's foundation, then go back and add the icing on the cake that singles your song out. Of course there are all sorts of suggestions hat can be made, but then one gets in the situation where the exercise is at the point of re-writing the whole song, which of course is no use at all.

Just as an after-thought. I came to music by way of the Blues, where the instrumentation and backbeat was rock solid, in many cases could hardly tell one song from the other except the melody and the lyric. But each artist added their take on things to set them apart from the others. Then I moved onto jazz/classical, and again started to recognise certain aspects that defined the genre, all well established as a foundation for a song/tune.

[EnDee]

Welcome!

Good work - first of all!

Here are the notes I made on my way through the two tracks;

Rock song

Drums bigger: more punch on the kick, snare is a bit thin, maybe try some under side snare mic pickup if possible. Definitely more snare body from the EQ. Overall drum pattern is a bit sparse when the instrumentation gets busier. That density needs to pick up a little too.

The stop - depends what you're aiming at here. I'd be looking at leaving
some cymbals ringing quietly across the stop. It appears to go unnaturally silent here - which sounds oddly abrupt to me - but this might be what you're aiming at. If it were me, I'd have a China hit here that carries over the gap - and that would be it's only appearance in the song. I'd probably flange it too - but that's just me.

Overall, lovely feel with plenty of space. I think the vocal sits fine and suits
very well tonally. Maybe back off the de-essing a touch if that's possible. Some of The esses sound a bit thick, but it might be my ears.

Hip Hop song

Sounds very 'on genre' to me, not too heavy, not too light. It's not really my
genre but I might look at dropping out most of the instrumentation and just leave the vocal with either drums or bass later on somewhere - and then fill the hole back up again for the end choruses and outtro. Something like that. But it works very well to a non hip hopper like me as it is.

Thank you very much Amanise.
I'm not a Rock person, and this is my first attempt. I'm not even a drummer or a guitarist, all these are MIDI notes. Therefore, every suggestion matters and I'm gonna apply them.

Agree with too much of accompaniments on the Hiphop track and dropping them in some sections and filling them back. It is difficult to change the mindset on the arrangement, but I'm gonna try it out.

If you have any advises on smoothing out the overall tone much appreciated.

Best regards.

[EnDee]

Sure, but what I might suggest at this point is listen analytically to some classic rock tracks, or any that you consider to be of the production/arrangement/engineering you hope to inspire you. I single out instruments whilst listening to a song, just listen to drums, just listen to bass etc and try and identify any musical 'cliches' that are employed to make the song what it is.

That doesn't mean emulate the song, what would be the point, but try and identify what element of that song, pushes it along.

One mistake I often made when I started playing in bands,. was because previously I'd always played solo, I over played a part, yes it was technically impressive, but the song ended up being one long guitar solo with a vocalist trying to weave a song around it. I had to be told to play less!

That is not to say this is the case with your song, but I am merely illustrating a point, and I went back to listening analytically, as I'd done when playing classical music, I'd gone from classical guitar to playing rhythm guitar in a punk thrash band - well, would you ever. It taught me a simple lesson, the instrumentation is there to carry the vocals along, and the listener is carried along with it, and they need to be held by the hand with a sense of direction. Yes all that seems formulaic, but in general that is the nature of popular music.

So a song needs to be rock steady, get a firm backbeat going, get the song laid down in it's foundation, then go back and add the icing on the cake that singles your song out. Of course there are all sorts of suggestions hat can be made, but then one gets in the situation where the exercise is at the point of re-writing the whole song, which of course is no use at all.

Just as an after-thought. I came to music by way of the Blues, where the instrumentation and backbeat was rock solid, in many cases could hardly tell one song from the other except the melody and the lyric. But each artist added their take on things to set them apart from the others. Then I moved onto jazz/classical, and again started to recognise certain aspects that defined the genre, all well established as a foundation for a song/tune.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write all these OneWorld. I agree with working on the drums for solid foundation; sometimes I feel like I'm lazy and not working enough on those. I have to improve my skills.

Best regards.

[Drew Stephenson]

Thank you very much Drew. Yes, the first one not Rock-Rock, it's more Pop-Rock. Since my songs are in different genres, I'm trying to maintain the balance between them as well. Both these tracks are in the same album, so it's not wise to mix for the exact genre, right?

Hmmm. I dunno. Depending on your release strategy you might find that people aren't listening to them as part of an album anyway so I'd try and give the song the right mix first, then worry about it sits on the album afterwards.

I feel like they sound too harsh and raw, instead of smooth and pleasant. Please give feedback on it, too.

Given them a proper listen now. One reason they might be feeling harsh is that you're running everything really hot and they're clipping.
I'd back everything off until your true peaks and LUFS are at more typical levels and have a listen then. You might find that takes the harsh edges off.

[EnDee]

Hmmm. I dunno. Depending on your release strategy you might find that people aren't listening to them as part of an album anyway so I'd try and give the song the right mix first, then worry about it sits on the album afterwards.

Agree. The concept of "Music album" is fading out. I not sure about compiling an album is required anymore.

Given them a proper listen now. One reason they might be feeling harsh is that you're running everything really hot and they're clipping.
I'd back everything off until your true peaks and LUFS are at more typical levels and have a listen then. You might find that takes the harsh edges off.

I'm referencing some modern, similar EDM tracks, and they are seriously loud yet smooth. I manage to reach the loudness but end up with a too compressed harsh sound. So I'm worrying if there is anything wrong with my techniques or maybe I will never be able to reach that quality with my budget setup.

However, when listening to others' work in the forum, they have smooth, pleasant mid and high sound, but I think they mostly lack the low end, which I love to have a punchy and loud kick with bass. I'm not sure about their loudness since I never compare. But when it comes to distributing on platforms like Spotify and YouTube, definitely our song will be compared to the other for continuous listeners, and in that case, not having enough loudness probably affects negatively; so I try my best to maintain the loudness. I feel a bit lost now.

[ef37a]

Hello EnDee and welcome to the forum.
I am not remotely qualified to comment on your music, even apart from the fact that I am clinically deaf!

I will however suggest that you are, IMHO limiting yourself with the Eris 3.5 "monitors". They are really computer media speakers but perhaps the best example of their type? "Low and punchy" they will not do!

I am sure like most of us these days, money is tight but if there was one part of your setup that needed upgrading I would say the speakers.

Dave.

[Drew Stephenson]

Hmmm. I dunno. Depending on your release strategy you might find that people aren't listening to them as part of an album anyway so I'd try and give the song the right mix first, then worry about it sits on the album afterwards.

Agree. The concept of "Music album" is fading out. I not sure about compiling an album is required anymore.

I still like and listen to albums a lot, and you just have to look at the success of things like Cowboy Carter and The Tortured Poets Department to see that there is still a market for a coherent collection of songs, delivered as a group.
But I still think mix the song first, then worry about how they sit together as part of the mastering stage.

Given them a proper listen now. One reason they might be feeling harsh is that you're running everything really hot and they're clipping.
I'd back everything off until your true peaks and LUFS are at more typical levels and have a listen then. You might find that takes the harsh edges off.

I'm referencing some modern, similar EDM tracks, and they are seriously loud yet smooth. I manage to reach the loudness but end up with a too compressed harsh sound. So I'm worrying if there is anything wrong with my techniques or maybe I will never be able to reach that quality with my budget setup.

However, when listening to others' work in the forum, they have smooth, pleasant mid and high sound, but I think they mostly lack the low end, which I love to have a punchy and loud kick with bass. I'm not sure about their loudness since I never compare. But when it comes to distributing on platforms like Spotify and YouTube, definitely our song will be compared to the other for continuous listeners, and in that case, not having enough loudness probably affects negatively; so I try my best to maintain the loudness. I feel a bit lost now.

Two things going on here I think. Firstly, your tracks are actually clipping - they're going over 0.0dBFS. That's always going to make things sound harsh. So make sure your limiter is set to true peak and have it giving at least 1dB of headroom. Possibly more.

In terms of loudness, the first thing to remember is that on platforms like Youtube and Spotify at least 90% of listeners will have it set to loudness normalisation. That means no matter how loud something has been mixed, it will be be turned down to a target level so that the user isn't constantly turning stuff up and down.
That being said, some tracks will still sound louder than others and there are various things at play here.
For one, having a big low end will really eat into your LUFS measurement. So you need to pick your moments for it and make sure it's actually adding weight where it's needed. Look at your arrangement and work out where you actually want that hitting and cut it out elsewhere. Our brains will happily assume low end content that is suggested but not actually there.
Your tracks were some of the highest numbers I've seen, they're going to be turned down hugely on streaming services as they generally target around -14LUFS (integrated).
Managing the low end is key for loudness in hiphop and EDM styles of music, one of the real experts on this is Zukan (on this forum) and he's got loads of tutorials specifically for low end on his website: https://samplecraze.com/tutorial-category/low-end/

[James Perrett]

I had a listen to the "rock" song and I'd have to say that you are doing well. My feeling is that some of the sounds seem a bit synthetic - particularly cymbals and certain guitar sounds. The style you have chosen for this song, while not conventional rock, works well but I think it needs the instruments to sound real. You also need to pay attention to the feel of the drums/percussion - there are places where it feels a bit awkward. My favourite technique is to start with a simple loop with the right feel - and feel is very important here because it will dictate what happens with the rest of the process. Once the track starts to build with the right feel then you can change the drum parts and make them more complex because the rest of the instruments on the track will carry the original feel.

I'll take a listen to the other one later...

[RichardT]

Hi Endee,

I think you already have some good feedback!

In addition to that, you might find it helpful to study some of the techniques of audio engineering in more depth. A book I found really helpful was Mike Senior’s ‘Mixing secrets for the small studio’.

https://amzn.eu/d/hUlE9Tg

It’s expensive but it’s worth it, IMO.

[James Perrett]

And the hip hop track is also good. The drum feel is much better than the rock track and all the instrumental parts seem appropriate.

My one comment is that many of the instruments sound like they come from a general MIDI sound module - they are very generic and recognisable to anyone who uses similar modules. I would think about using effects to make the sounds a bit different. Don't go overboard, but things like chorus, delay and ambience could be helpful here - maybe even some creative filtering?

Also, as others have said, watch those levels. If you want a crunchy sound then use a compressor rather than clip the master bus.

[EnDee]

Hello EnDee and welcome to the forum.
I am not remotely qualified to comment on your music, even apart from the fact that I am clinically deaf!

I will however suggest that you are, IMHO limiting yourself with the Eris 3.5 "monitors". They are really computer media speakers but perhaps the best example of their type? "Low and punchy" they will not do!

I am sure like most of us these days, money is tight but if there was one part of your setup that needed upgrading I would say the speakers.

Dave.

Thank you Dave.
I know... I'm a poor person living in a small room. May be will go for better monitors when I get a better place to live and set up my studio
Best regards.

[EnDee]

Two things going on here I think. Firstly, your tracks are actually clipping - they're going over 0.0dBFS. That's always going to make things sound harsh. So make sure your limiter is set to true peak and have it giving at least 1dB of headroom. Possibly more.

I turn on true peaks on Ozone, but the peaks are set at 0. I will try tweaking them.

In terms of loudness, the first thing to remember is that on platforms like Youtube and Spotify at least 90% of listeners will have it set to loudness normalisation. That means no matter how loud something has been mixed, it will be be turned down to a target level so that the user isn't constantly turning stuff up and down.
That being said, some tracks will still sound louder than others and there are various things at play here.
For one, having a big low end will really eat into your LUFS measurement. So you need to pick your moments for it and make sure it's actually adding weight where it's needed. Look at your arrangement and work out where you actually want that hitting and cut it out elsewhere. Our brains will happily assume low end content that is suggested but not actually there.
Your tracks were some of the highest numbers I've seen, they're going to be turned down hugely on streaming services as they generally target around -14LUFS (integrated).
Managing the low end is key for loudness in hiphop and EDM styles of music, one of the real experts on this is Zukan (on this forum) and he's got loads of tutorials specifically for low end on his website: https://samplecraze.com/tutorial-category/low-end/

I have understood that the low end is eating the loudness. Thank you very much for the link to the tutorial, gonna take a look at them and learn more.

Best regards.

[EnDee]

I had a listen to the "rock" song and I'd have to say that you are doing well. My feeling is that some of the sounds seem a bit synthetic - particularly cymbals and certain guitar sounds. The style you have chosen for this song, while not conventional rock, works well but I think it needs the instruments to sound real. You also need to pay attention to the feel of the drums/percussion - there are places where it feels a bit awkward. My favourite technique is to start with a simple loop with the right feel - and feel is very important here because it will dictate what happens with the rest of the process. Once the track starts to build with the right feel then you can change the drum parts and make them more complex because the rest of the instruments on the track will carry the original feel.

I'll take a listen to the other one later...

Thank you James.
Yes, synthetic , everything is MIDI via samplers/synthesizers in Reason. I'm not a guitarist or a drummer; I'm trying to learn better techniques and approaches to utilize my limited resources to the maximum. Do you think I could do better with the right techniques with my synths?(using only Reason's stock plugins) Please suggest some synth plugins for drums and guitars too.
Best regards.

[EnDee]

Hi Endee,

I think you already have some good feedback!

In addition to that, you might find it helpful to study some of the techniques of audio engineering in more depth. A book I found really helpful was Mike Senior’s ‘Mixing secrets for the small studio’.

https://amzn.eu/d/hUlE9Tg

It’s expensive but it’s worth it, IMO.

Thank you very much Richard.
Ehem, yes, a bit expensive, but will add it to my wish list
Cheers.

[EnDee]

And the hip hop track is also good. The drum feel is much better than the rock track and all the instrumental parts seem appropriate.

My one comment is that many of the instruments sound like they come from a general MIDI sound module - they are very generic and recognisable to anyone who uses similar modules. I would think about using effects to make the sounds a bit different. Don't go overboard, but things like chorus, delay and ambience could be helpful here - maybe even some creative filtering?

Also, as others have said, watch those levels. If you want a crunchy sound then use a compressor rather than clip the master bus.

Thank you James.
Agree, I have to improve my synth editing knowledge, I'm really bad at it. But I love old school sawtooth synth sounds

Yes, as others have also pointed out, I should improve my final limiting/compressing techniques. Maybe avoiding clipping can be the secret ingredient for my projects

Best regards.

[James Perrett]

Agree, I have to improve my synth editing knowledge, I'm really bad at it. But I love old school sawtooth synth sounds

My suggestion would be to play with a Roland Dimension D emulation which gives a bit of depth to synth sounds.