Need advice re plucking low E and A on electric guitar

[Mannyrock55]

Hello Folks,

I am a semi-newbie, and have a few questions please. My odd background is:

1. Took piano lessons for 10 years.
2. Took trumpet lessons for 10 years.
3. Gave up both after grad school.
4. Twenty years later, in Memphis, bought a 1973 Gibson 335 and played rhythm guitar, on an off, for 4 years. Developed a very heavy hand, and no feel for plucking, except occasional work on the high B and E strings.
5. Another 25 years pass, and doggonit, I'm going to learn how to play solid body lead guitar. I remember all music theory from piano. Bought a used Fender Duo Sonic HS Players Series, made in Mexico. I selected it because I broke my left wrist in 4th grade, and my wrist will only bend inward so far until I get a shocking shooting pain in my wrist. The thin neck and relatively shallow thickness of the neck seem to work fine for me.
6. I have practiced 4 hours per day, for one month, and can play two octaves of the major scales and Minor Pentatonic Scales in 5 keys, at medium speed with relative ease. I use no 10 pure nickel strings and a Jazz 3, .80 pick.
7. EXCEPT that I am now stuck, because in playing any playing scales, especially when starting on the highest note and coming down the scales to the bass A and E strings, my picking derails. Those strings seem so heavy and thick, that in order to play them, I really have to pluck them hard, which takes me out my light and even picking zone, and lifts up my wrist. Also, the palm of my hand, which rests on the bride, falls off the low end of the bridge because I have run out of room.

I know that some lead guitar players rarely pluck those low E and A strings, but playing lead in 12 bar traditional blues very often requires it.

I would certainly appreciate it if anyone who plays lead on a Fender or other SG guitar would give me some advice on what I might do to try to overcome this. I was thinking of maybe substituting no. 9 strings for the bass E and A strings to make them lighter. But I am not sure that this would be a good idea.

Thanks for all advice.

Mannyrock

[Wonks]

Hi and welcome.

How high is the action of the guitar?

I consider that there are three parts to the action. You have the amount of neck relief, the height of the unfretted strings at the 12th fret and the height of the strings over the 1st fret.

Can you describe the action to us?

If you can get the action down, fretting the lower strings will take much less force and make it feel like you have lighter strings on the guitar.

[shufflebeat]

To find and develop your natural “stance”, practice those scales on the lower strings only for a while ‘til it becomes second nature. In the process you’ll develop a feel for what needs doing. If in doubt - do less, i.e., don’t worry about playing to be heard, that’ll come later. Just get a nice consistent feel and movement.

[amanise]

I use quite a bit of palm muting on those strings, which takes a while to develop. It will also depend massively on how much distortion you use as to how sensitive they are to your pick. It sounds like you're on the right road, but I'm not sure lighter strings will help. If anything I'd try going the other way, but I've always used Ernie Ball 10s and never wavered. Perhaps you could try winding some distortion way the heck up there to make those strings super scratchy, and practice like that for a bit, and then try the same exercise clean again to see if your hand is any lighter. If it doesn't make any difference you've only upset the neighbours a little bit, and they'll get over it. Keep going!

[Sam Spoons]

I play mostly acoustic these days so I find 10's on my electrics feel nice and light. There should be no need to pick harder on the A and low E and disrupt your 'light and even' picking.

Check that the angle of attack of your pick is the same on those strings as it is on the others and focus on keeping your picking even, it may be that you are trying to pick too lightly?

Maybe a recording and pics of you picking hand or, better still, a short video of you playing* would help us diagnose the problem.

* The forum doesn't host content so use imgur or YT or similar sites and post links on here, for images this YT video tells you how to get pics to show in your posts. https://youtu.be/s7vVDGTOHW0

[adrian_k]

… There should be no need to pick harder on the A and low E and disrupt your 'light and even' picking.
….

^^^^ This, especially on an electric. So
I’m wondering whether there is a setup problem with pickup height that means those strings are quieter than they should be, which makes you want to pick harder - ideally you should be getting a balanced, even sound across all strings. What happens when you play a 5th fret A chord? Do those strings sound quiet in relation to the others? (Edit) And is it the same with either pickup?

[Wonks]

Assuming the guitar action is fine, it may be worth trying a different pick. Jazz IIIs come in at least tortex, nylon and carbon fibre versions (with very different degrees of stiffness for the same thickness) and whilst the same shape, they all have different feels and attack sounds.

Dunlop do bags with a selection of different types of light and medium picks, so you could get one and try some out (that's how I settled on a celluloid thin which works for me), or you coukd try more from their Jazz III range.

https://www.jimdunlop.com/products/guitar-picks/jazz/

If you are playing hard because otherwise you get too dull a sound, it may be down to softer pick material than you need for your style of playing. Everyone is different and really thick picks work for some, and thin for others.

[Wonks]

At 24", the Duo Sonic is a relatively short-scale guitar. 1.5" shorter than the standard Fender scale length and 0.5" shorter than a standard Gibson electric. So I'd try and stick with the 10s as 9s will generally feel too floppy (though it does depending on what you're used to as I started out on 8s an a LP copy).

You could also try regular D'Addario Nickel strings rather than the Pure Nickel ones. The Pure Nickel require at least a couple of more pounds tension on the low strings than the standard Nickels, so Pure Nickel 10s will feel more like a set of 11s with standard Nickel strings.

The wound Nickel strings will also sound brighter than the Pure Nickel strings, which means you might feel happier with the sound and don't need to pluck so hard.

But also check the pickup height as Adrian cleverly suggested. You'll almost certainly want the treble side of the neck pickup a bit nearer the strings than on the bass side, but you won't want it too far from the strings. The humbucker can sit a bit nearer the strings than the single coil as they have less magnetic string pull, but it's not a Strat with three single coils where the combined string pull can be significant enough to affect the tuning if they are positioned too near the strings.

[Wonks]

*I should have said 0.75” less than a Gibson scale, not 0.5”.

[Mannyrock55]

Wow! What a great list of excellent advice! You guys are great.

I am going to check out every single piece of advice.

The sound I am getting from the low bass strings seems a little strange. They sound like what happens when you pluck a string on a standard acoustic bass fiddle, like Dickie Smothers used to play. There seems to be some "fuzz" around the edges of the tone sound, instead of a nice clean boom. The strings are not buzzing on the frets though, because I have check that out. The best I can describe the sound is, "phoom".

Also, when I pluck the E and A, it feels like I am trying to pluck the bowstring on a 50 pound hunting bow. There is a lot of resistance.

I try to not to play with distortion. I like a clean sound, with a small amount of gain.

Thanks,

Mannyrock

[adrian_k]

That “phoom” sound, as Wonks says check neck relief, nut height, and the way the slots have been cut, there should be a clean contact point at the front of the nut.

One other possibility that I’ve seen on a few inexpensive Fender guitars is a slight twist in the neck.

[amanise]

...
I try to not to play with distortion. I like a clean sound, with a small amount of gain.

Thanks,

Mannyrock

Yep, that was just a suggestion for getting your hand a bit lighter. Contrary to popular belief, it takes a lot of finesse and accuracy to articulate softly on a guitar loaded with a ton of distortion and gain. Any old numpty can windmill away on one, but the soft passages are difficult. Good training for the hand.

From what your saying it does sound like you have a weirdly high amount of tension on those bottom two strings. Back in the day when I first started out, people used to worry a lot about the gauges of each individual string. Mates of mine would buy individual strings rather than packs, so they could get 'their' gauges for each string. I was in a small minority who never bothered, and just got used to the standard pack of 10s. But if your getting weird 'phoom' noises....

What's it like if you use something really hard like a coin?

[Matt Houghton]

These guys are way more knowledgeable than I am about guitars, but — bearing in mind I'm having a hard time imagining the 'phoom' sound so could well be barking up the wrong tree! — I wonder if it might be down to the plectrum or how much of it you're using to pluck the strings.

In my experience, show the string too much depth of plectrum and you'll tend to get a lot of resistance from the thick strings and not such a clean pluck. And if you do that and angle the plectrum then you'll get a softer pluck — a 'phoom' maybe? A thicker/harder pick but using less of it on the string might work better?

You could probably figure out if this is the case simply by playing the same way on a different electric guitar — same result, then it's almost certainly you/the plectrum; different result and it's probably one or more of the many wise suggestions further up this thread.

[Wonks]

It's also worth trying the neck reseating trick by undoing each neck screw slightly in turn (strings on and upnto pitch), until you hear a click/creaking noise. Then move on to the next screw. You should only need a maximum of 1/2 to 1 turn. Once all four screws are slightly loose, then retighten.

If the neck isn't fully butted up against the end of the neck pocket, it can affect the tone slightly, and loosening the screws lets the string tension pull the neck to the back of the pocket if it's not there already.

It will often do nothing, but just sometimes you can hear a definite improvement in attack and sustain.

[Wonks]

I'd also check the saddles are sitting parallel to the bridge plate and that both the height adjustment screws for each saddle are touching the bridge plate.

If the saddles are angled, you can sometimes end up with one not quite touching the bridge plate and which can produce a vague buzzing sound when the string is played.

[adrian_k]

Yes, maybe counterintuitively it’s possible to get interference from material from behind the contact point on both the nut and saddle, if it makes the contact less ‘clean’. Faint buzzes and also that kind of ‘bloom’, like a fretless bass, can ensue.

[Wonks]

So it may be best at your next string change, to remove the neck completely and clear out any sawdust/bits of wood fibre from the neck pocket. Also make sure that the neck screw holes in the body are the same size as the screws. Drill out if necessary.

If you have to screw the screws through the body, rather than just slide them through the holes, then there's a good chance the neck isn't being pulled down hard to the body as you can't turn the screw enough to do so because it's fully screwed into the body but not the neck.

[merlyn]

If I'm understanding you correctly, when you play a descending scale it goes doo-dee-doo-phoom-phoom-phoom-phoom-phoom. What do you think of the D string? Strings gradually get thicker, so I wouldn't expect a huge change between D and A.

What amp are you using? And what gauge of strings?

[Mannyrock55]

Thanks for all of the additional great advice.

I am going to print all of this out, so I can have a permanent record of it.

If there is any part of this Board where Troubleshooting Threads are stored, then this one should be there for certain. I think you guys have written the book on possible problems and solutions to this problem, and I am sure it would be helpful to others.

My bass D string has a bit of resistance, but I play it well with just a little extra effort in picking. The E and A bass strings are significantly more difficult.

I have ordered a set of D'addario no. 10 nickel strings, and will put them in place of the two current E and A. Then I am going through all of the other possibilities step by step.

Many have mentioned potential problems with my bridge saddles. This guitar has a nice set of Block bridges, so I am not really certain whether those are even called saddles.

I have a pretty cheap practice amp, a Fender FM25 DSP. I have been able to get good mid and high range sounds of it. Maybe the sound with my low bass strings is really due to the amp. Guess I need to go to an expensive guitar shop and try more expensive amps. It is pretty intimidating, though, to walk into a shop with a cheap Fender, and ask for help in resolving something, when there are so many great players and expensive guitars where I live.

A couple of folks have mentioned the possibility of a slight twist in the neck. This has definitely been in the back of my mind, because it was really hard for me to get string height, and pickup height, adjusted so that I didn't get buzzing sounds in the middle or ends of the neck, with my other strings. I had to tweak the strut rod by 1/8th of a turn. And I really had to tweek each string height a lot, some pretty high, and some fairly low.

I bought this guitar used (by mail of course), but in appearance, it is absolutely pristine. Not a mark on it. Looks NIB. They retail new for about $800 and I only paid $425 for this one. So, maybe someone sent a Lemon down the road to me.

I guess that if I can't solve this problem myself, I can take it to a professional's shop and pay to have it "set-up." But, I live in serious acoustic and electric guitar country, against the Blue Ridge Mountains (Charlottesville), and most of the professional shops charge $150+ or more for simple set-ups, and have a two to three week backlog. I have a feeling that after spending a $150+, it is likely that the pro will tell me I got a bad one and it is hopeless. Or, that it will take $400 of work to fix it.

Until then, I will soldier on, and try all of your remedies. I bought this as a beginner guitar, and was planning on buying a better one in a year or so, but I really like the way this guitar handles.

Thanks very much,

Mannyrock

[Wonks]

Yes, the blocks are individual saddles. The bit the string sits on is always called the saddle, whether it’s a single strip of plastic or bone as on an acoustic guitar, or steel, brass, alloy (and occasionally nylon on some old Gibsons) saddles on electrics. The surrounding assembly to keep them in place plus the saddles is generally collectively called the bridge.

[merlyn]

Trying to imagine what 'phoom' sounds like and what could cause it ... is it pick scrape?

You said above that when you get to A and E, your palm comes off the bridge. That means that your palm is above the pick, which means that the pick is angled relative to the strings. The frets are at right-angles to the strings, and the line of the frets is the line that the pick should travel in for minimum scrape.

You could try making sure that you are picking at right-angles to the string, which may be easier if you don't rest your palm on the bridge.

[Sam Spoons]

I have a pretty cheap practice amp, a Fender FM25 DSP. I have been able to get good mid and high range sounds of it. Maybe the sound with my low bass strings is really due to the amp. Guess I need to go to an expensive guitar shop and try more expensive amps. It is pretty intimidating, though, to walk into a shop with a cheap Fender, and ask for help in resolving something, when there are so many great players and expensive guitars where I live.

I bought this guitar used (by mail of course), but in appearance, it is absolutely pristine. Not a mark on it. Looks NIB. They retail new for about $800 and I only paid $425 for this one. So, maybe someone sent a Lemon down the road to me.

Until then, I will soldier on, and try all of your remedies. I bought this as a beginner guitar, and was planning on buying a better one in a year or so, but I really like the way this guitar handles.

Where I come from an $800 guitar is not a cheap guitar and most players/shop staff will not looked down on you for owning one*. If it was a $150 Strat copy then maybe but I know of several good pro/semipro guitar players who use Squires or Mexican Fenders and my own goto gigging guitar is a bitsa built around a Squire neck which stands me at the equivalent of around $150.

But, yes there are lemons out there and at least getting a good guitar tech to evaluate it should help set your mind at rest.

* IME not many jobbing pro's play custom shop Fenders, some do for sure but they are usually the province of well heeled amateur/semipro guys.

[Mannyrock55]

Thanks for his additional advice.

All of the Youtubes I have watched by the "pros" say that you should play with the palm of your hand placed flat against the bride.

As I have said, when I get to those two low strings, I have run out of bridge length and my palm either falls at an angle (with the thumb part of the palm flat against the body and the pinkie part of the palm stuck up on the bridge), OR my palm is "floating" above the strings. I really try to avoid doing the angle thing, but when my palm is floating, I get a totally inconsistent plucking technique, which is never quite right.

So what are guys doing with the palm section under your thumb, when you run out of bridge length at the low strings?

Thanks again for all advice.

Mannyrock

[amanise]

Hi Manny

That's an issue I experience as well when I use a Strat. I'm most used to Gibsons and you can palm mute all the time without any problems with those bridges. For some reason the Fenders I have - the bridges do exactly what you've described. I think what I've ended up doing over time with my Fenders is put more reliance on anchoring my hand with the tip of my little finger on the scratch plate right next to the volume pot. So your hand can float - but still have a reference point. Doing that gives you best access for violining with the pot as well - something which I find very hard on Les Paul type Gibsons (but not so much on the SG).

So eventually you begin to see why the big guys use multiple guitars - as they each have their strengths and weaknesses in their design.

[Sam Spoons]

Thanks for his additional advice.

All of the Youtubes I have watched by the "pros" say that you should play with the palm of your hand placed flat against the bride.

I'm assuming a very specific style/genre? In most of the styles I play palm muting is a specific technique and not a default, you should certainly strive to pick accurately both with your palm muting at the bridge and floating.