Recording a string trio in a bad room

[SoundOutWest]

in 3 weeks I'm recording a viola, violin and cello in an art gallery. The whole building is just glass and tiles with a ceiling that's higher than average but still not high enough for classical music. I already know roughly how I'll be recording the gig but I wanted to run the plan by you guys in case I've missed something.

The three are seated in a triangular shape, with the violin on the left, viola to the right and cello in the middle. The cello will be on a short riser and the three are far enough from each other that you could fit somebody in the middle of the "triangle." I could probably get them to space themselves out a little more if needed.

Close mics are the only real option here, given the bad acoustics. I'll have a rode NT55 (cardiod) on each, with the viola and violin being mic'd from overehead and the cello with a mic much lower down, roughly at level with the f-hole. My experience is that mic positioning is far less critical on cellos.

My biggest concern is phase issues from either a) bleed across the 3 mics and b) reflections from those shiny tile floors and ceiling. My remedies for each are:

a) Take measurements and adhere to the 3:1 rule. point the cardiods outwards from the centre of the triangle so they are all pointed away from each other

b) Point the cardiods away from the ceiling and try to position them such that the musician's bodies block floor reflections. I could just get in closer but bear in mind that the viola and violin are standing, so I can't get too close or their expressive movements will cause huge volume variations.

I'll essentially have to *fake* a stereo sound by adding reverb in post. I wonder if maybe some bleed between the mics will actually help in this regard, but I'd rather be cautious.

Any thoughts? Things I've missed?

[tacitus]

I’m assuming hard floor so can you put the players on a rug? Not sure how much it’ll do, but when you’re hanging by your nails, even nail varnish helps!

What’s the recording for? Presumably not for general release.

Given how much string players move about, especially standing, you could be stuffed with directional mikes. I’d be inclined to try a pair of omni boundary mikes (those Rodes, with omni capsules, on the floor if nothing else to hand), get the players in a nice huddle round them, as far from all walls as you can, and see (hear) what happens.

I put a pair up in a sort-of similar situation recently, where the mains were a pair of omnis on a stand as per usual. Having spare channels on the Zoom F6 I was using, this was an experiment. As it happened, the mains were lovely, and only one piece (a crumhorn quartet) could even pretend to be better on the boundary mikes. The point was how OK the boundary mikes were.

I think if you have the rug, the mikes might want to be on a board atop the rug; I’m not the expert, but I usually have boundary mikes on a hard surface. Or no rug at all; the boundary mikes effectively neutralise the hard surface they’re on.

If all the players can be seated, you might do better getting their mikes a bit closer as they won’t be able to move quite so much.

Hopefully someone with more idea of what they’re doing will be along soon to help!

[Sam Inglis]

Without having seen the space, my immediate inclination would be to try to record them using a stereo pair, preferably omnis, but as close up as possible. So have them sit as close together as they can, and bring the mics as close in as you can get them whilst still maintaining a good balance and stereo image. (Tacitus' idea of using boundary mics on the floor is a good one too.)

[ef37a]

Without having seen the space, my immediate inclination would be to try to record them using a stereo pair, preferably omnis, but as close up as possible. So have them sit as close together as they can, and bring the mics as close in as you can get them whilst still maintaining a good balance and stereo image. (Tacitus' idea of using boundary mics on the floor is a good one too.)

This is interesting Sam because I have always thought, where you have moving players, a "proper" stereo recording,i.e. mainly a stereo pair, will simply translate movement AS movement and not a big level shift?

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The first thing I'd question is why bother to record a string trio in what you say is a bad sounding space?

But if you must, you'll need to minimise the compromises, and close miking is certainly a valid approach. Personally, I'm not a fan of cardioids on strings, especially violins... omnis sound more natural to me, and you'd be able to pull them in closer than cardioids, which will help with separation (and will still cope fairly well with animated players).

You could then pan and pad out with reverb, but I'd be tempted to use room mics to capture the real acoustic.

However, that all feels like a lot of effort for what is likely to be only an archive recording.... so I'd do much as Sam suggests: spaced omni pair on a discreet stand slightly in front of the triangle.

I'd start with a spacing of 53cm, giving a recording angle of about 160 degrees, and about 3 to 3.5m up. Adjust to taste.

Wider spacing of the omnis reduces the recording angle.

[Sam Inglis]

I missed the bit about the violin and viola players standing up. That could make it awkward to find a good placement for a stereo pair! Is there a particular reason why they're not sitting?

[Wonks]

I missed the bit about the violin and viola players standing up. That could make it awkward to find a good placement for a stereo pair! Is there a particular reason why they're not sitting?

Probably because the OP said they’d be seated.

[Sam Inglis]

Actually the OP says both! It would be useful to know which is correct.

[ef37a]

Actually the OP says both! It would be useful to know which is correct.

Maybe they will be popping up and down like an Oompah band!

Dave.

[Martin Walker]

Now then Dave, this is a sensible classical thread, so you're lowering the tone a little

[Bob Bickerton]

A couple of questions; It sounds as though it's a performance, if not, could you talk them into using a better space? If so, hopefully you'll have a full house - bodies make great acoustic absorbers!

I'd be inclined to keep it simple and use an omni pair, as has been suggested, rather than close mic and potentially create issues essentially of your own making.

In my experience, provided you communicate to the ensemble the potential problems with the room in advance and explain you're taking the best approach under the circumstances, they will likely thank you, and perhaps seek your advice for future concerts/venues.

Another thought to add to the conversation is that we're rather good at 'translating' an acoustic in a poor live setting into something acceptable, something microphones and thus recordings cannot do. Probably worth mentioning this to them as well.

Bob

[SoundOutWest]

Just to clarify, the viola and violin will be *standing.* Cello will be seated on a short riser.

I'm a bit more interested in the spaced pair approach. I am however filming the event and so for aesthetic reasons, I would have to use 2 mic stands close to each other such the the cello is still visible between them.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'd use a thin stand with a heavy base, like a K&M 26007 with the 26700 base which will get you to 3.1 metres and be as discreet as any centre stand can be. I've used that quite often with video events with no complaints.

...or I'd use a heavy manfrotto tripod stand well off to the side with a long boom arm over the top to hold the mic array. I use an Ambient jumbo pole for that kind of rig.

Alternatively, is there any option to rig a catenary wire?

[tacitus]

Hugh’s K&M tall stand solution is my preferred one now (thank you, Hugh, for enlightenment); I have one with a pair of cables from an old snake going up the inside so I can do a central pair with minimal clutter. I even put it in front of grumpy conductors, so they have to decide whether to make me move it or regard it as another tribute to their epoch-defining skills (AKA vanity, but we don’t mention that, do we!).

They don’t show up too badly in video, as a rule, either. Just be careful not to shoot the whole band directly behind the maestro, who will not appreciate appearing to have a tree growing out of his head. And not even a Decca tree.

With a trio like this, and in this possibly horrible-sounding venue, you might choose to sacrifice extreme mike height and get a bit closer to the sound. I’ve managed to remove ambience pretty well like that, sometimes. With only a trio, balance may be relatively unaffected.

I’d consider re-recording the soundtrack if it’s an important video. That’d be my solution if you don’t manage to get a nice sound live.

[forumuser840717]

Is it a live concert/event with some kind of audience, with all the attendant considerations that brings, or just something that someone has decided to film in a venue that they like the look of without thinking how it might sound?

[forumuser840717]

... Just be careful not to shoot the whole band directly behind the maestro, who will not appreciate appearing to have a tree growing out of his head. And not even a Decca tree. ...

A trio is very unlikely to have a conductor.

[Martin Walker]

Is it a live concert/event with some kind of audience, with all the attendant considerations that brings, or just something that someone has decided to film in a venue that they like the look of without thinking how it might sound?

This.

Also, as it's an art gallery (perhaps a strange venue for a string quartet acoustically), is this a special performance to enhance a private viewing of an art exhibition?

If this is the case, you could well have to bear in mind people chatting and moving around (a respectfully silent audience could be unlikely if folk are considering buying a painting), the chinking of glasses, and so on.

[Sam Spoons]

How about an additional 'performance art' installation consisting of a Yurt made from duvets* in which the trio would play?

* To maintain artistic integrity could you borrow them from Tracey Emmen's bed...

[ef37a]

How about an additional 'performance art' installation consisting of a Yurt made from duvets* in which the trio would play?

* To maintain artistic integrity could you borrow them from Tracey Emmen's bed...

Oi! Watch it Sam or you will have Martin on to you for "lowering the tone"!

To the OP. Whatever, can we hear the result?

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I stumbled across this FB post which appears to be the OP asking the same question... but with a picture of the venue which I thought might be helpful to contributors.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1AFJfbBsbN/

[tacitus]

... Just be careful not to shoot the whole band directly behind the maestro, who will not appreciate appearing to have a tree growing out of his head. And not even a Decca tree. ...

A trio is very unlikely to have a conductor.

I wasn’t specifically thinking of this job; just the risk with this setup at that angle; what in other forms of writing might be described as “local colour”, perhaps.

[Martin Walker]

Ye gods - that's definitely a case of damage limitation then.

I would be inclined to at least get a large rug beneath the trio, to absorb at least some of the reflections from that oh-so-shiny floor.

[ef37a]

Chat up a local builder's merchant and have them bring in some bales of GF and rockwool. Tell the punters it is "an installation".

Dave

[SoundOutWest]

I stumbled across this FB post which appears to be the OP asking the same question... but with a picture of the venue which I thought might be helpful to contributors.

FB_IMG_1742841627233.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1AFJfbBsbN/

Yes that is indeed my post and the photo you see there is a local council art gallery in Victoria, Australia. I got a few helpful comments on there. Also a lot of kind of silly ones suggesting I hang booms from the light bar or use a giant ambient pole. I'm not sure what kind of gigs people are working where those are considered simple options.

So far, I've devised a plan to use a wide-ish spaced pair however each mic will be mounted a seperate mic boom. I'll have one mic stand on either side of the cello riser and raise the booms up in towards the the centre of the ensemble; dare I say it might look pretty. Cello spot will be needed.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Yes that is indeed my post and the photo you see there is a local council art gallery in Victoria, Australia.

Any chance of visiting ahead of time? Hearing the acoustic for real will make miking decisions so much easier!

I got a few helpful comments on there. Also a lot of kind of silly ones suggesting I hang booms from the light bar or use a giant ambient pole.

I think the ambient pole was my suggestion here... but it was before I'd seen the place, and to be fair, the ambient pole has solved a lot of tricky recording situations for me.

Having now seen the place, dropping mics from those lighting grids might well be a pragmatic and audience-safe solution.

I'd ignore the suggestions to put down a rug, though. Stages have wooden floors for lots of reasons, but most orchestral instruments are designed to work with reflections from wooden floors.

I'm not sure what kind of gigs people are working where those are considered simple options.

Quite normal ones...

So far, I've devised a plan to use a wide-ish spaced pair however each mic will be mounted a seperate mic boom.

No problem with separate boom stands, but how wide is 'wide-ish'? The wider you go, the narrower the SRA and the more likely you are to suffer the hole-in-the-middle effect.

I'll have one mic stand on either side of the cello riser and raise the booms up in towards the the centre of the ensemble...Cello spot will be needed.

This sounds like you're reverting to your original three spot mic concept, then. A normal omni stereo pair would need to be much further forward.

Fair enough, though. Entirely your call.

If you get the chance to experiment, try the omni capsules instead of cardioids on all three mics to see which you prefer.