Is a separate keyboard amp generally a good or bad idea?

[alexis]

Hello -

No one in our band has extensive experience playing live, but someone came by on Saturday who has a ton of live experience, and suggested that keys often do much better through a keyboard amp than a "regular" PA system. When I asked why he gave a couple of answers, ranging from the frequency response of the main PA not being as good as a keyboard amp, and also the keyboard would push the main PA to levels where it's more likely to distort unless it were purchased to be big enough to handle that.

We are a band with a variable line up, but consistently 3 keyboards (one is me), 2 or 3 guitars (one or two electric, the other mic'd up acoustics), electric bass, acoustic drums that are not mic'd up in our usual indoor venue (about 100 people), harmonica, and electrified mandolin, but we're looking to play on an outdoor stage next month.

Re: The keys - one person generally plays soft piano or Rhodes/Wurly-type chords, another generally plays piano sounds to whatever chords are being played, and I try to find some place in between both, sometimes piano/Wurly, sometimes horns, sometimes strings, etc. None of this being ideal, it is what it is!

We generally play blues, country and "pop radio" covers from the 1960s-2000s, as you can tell from the line up we don't play super loud electrified guitar like Hendrix, and we don't play a lot/any heavy synth-based music.

None of us has experience setting up a PA system.

I was wondering ... do you keyboard players (or others who may know) tend to agree with this - that a separate keyboard amp is a good idea to supplement the main band PA?

Thank you for any thoughts!

[James Perrett]

None of us has experience setting up a PA system.

I think that this is the important thing here...

If you put everything through the PA then, as everyone seems to be using similar sounds, you are going to need separate monitor mixes for each player so that they can hear themselves properly. With the number of people involved this is going to rapidly become very complex and will require someone experienced who is very on the ball to run it.

It is far simpler, to have everyone with their own amp where they can balance themselves.

But everyone will have their own opinion - and the best solution depends on both the venue and the people involved so it would be good if you found someone local who could walk you through the options at a rehearsal.

[RichardT]

Absolutely I agree with this in general, except in large venues where you need more power, or outside with a large audience.

It’s much simpler to set up and manage and the sound quality will generally be better too partly because you’re minimising what goes through the PA, partly because you’re avoiding having two sources of sound for each of the keyboards.

And the sound guy is also right that most PAs don’t handle keys that well. And in your case you also have a large number of rhythm section players so putting them all through the PA would generate a particularly messy sound.

The same is true of rhythm guitars. Guitar amps are better for them.

Now if you had a very high quality PA, a good engineer, and in ear monitoring, things might be different! But most bands don’t have that luxury.

In your case, it’s actually possible you might have to put everything through a PA, though. It really depends how big an audience you have there. A few hundred, in my experience, is fine with keyboard and guitar amps, but if you’re into the thousands, it has to be a PA.

[Wonks]

It is a rare PA these days that won’t have a better frequency response than a keyboard amp. Especially if you use a sub. They are often repackaged PA mixer amps with incorporated PA speakers

Back in the 70s you’d often get the keyboards put through a Fender Twin or other similar fairly clean amp, with a less than stellar frequency response.

But you don‘t need to hear a full frequency rendition of your keyboard sound if in a band situation. I know/know of several keyboard players who use small personal monitors such as Mackie SRM150, or Behringer equivalent, which acts as both a small mixer and a monitor.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Decent keyboard amps are big and heavy, and I've never much cared for them.

I use a pair of Bose S1Pros either as backing, or as monitors, depending on the type of gig.

[alexis]

Thank you, Hugh! I remember from previous help you've given me that you're a keyboard player, I love it!

May I follow up with some questions to possibly get me more in the know please?

Decent keyboard amps are big and heavy...

As are powered PA speakers, but maybe keyboard apps are way heavier...
.

I use a pair of Bose S1Pros ...

... than your Bose?

.

Do you play solo acts, Hugh, vs. "trying to compete" with an amplified band?

Thank you for any other comments/ suggestions you may send my way

[alexis]

...
And the sound guy is also right that most PAs don’t handle keys that well.

vs. ...

It is a rare PA these days that won’t have a better frequency response than a keyboard amp. Especially if you use a sub.

.
I see opinions can vary!

And that's OK, of course.

But I am concerned I may have posed my question poorly. I'm choosing between joining the rest of the band in being projected through the PA, vs the audience hearing my sound through a separate speaker - which I sloppily called a keyboard amp.

It seems there's some advantage to being separate as a keyboard player, based on congested mid- ranges that my band has (I think I'd agree with that assessment of our sound, I'm blown away Richard T accurately predicted that by the description/ instrumentation of my band members).

I've done further reading since posting originally, and I see the three form factors for an individual keyboard speaker are "keyboard amp", usually on the floor in grimy of the keyboardist; regular old PA speakers on poles, and column speakers.

Other choices I have are whether to have my keyboard projected in stereo (which would sound much better, I believe) or mono (which keeps my head under the parapet at least minimally in terms of being perceived as an overly needy band member ... after all, why should the keyboard gets is own amplification that doesn't go through the Soundcraft mixer if no one else needs that)?

It's all very overwhelming!

[Hugh Robjohns]

There are countless 'full range' compact PA speakers like the Bose system at different costs, sizes, powers and qualities. The decent ones sound better than most keyboard combos, in my opinion.

I think the S1s do a very decent job on synths, pianos (electric and acoustic), strings, and organ. Certainly good enough for local monitoring and generally effective as a back line for smaller and semi-acoustic gigs.

It's true that the S1s don't have the real low end weight for organ pedals or synth bass lines, but the main PA can usually fill that in. Or I can lug along the Bose sub1 if necessary.

Few dedicated keyboard amps can deliver that low end, either, of course (you'd really need something the size of a Leslie 122 with a 15 inch woofer!) so they still have no real advantage over the Bose and lots of size/weight disadvantages, plus I get stereo whereas most keyboard amps are mono (important for EPs and Leslie effects).

Obviously, this is largely a matter of personal preference and practicality... but I wouldn't go back to big heavy Roland KCs, let alone my old Leslie speakers!!!

For context, I'm a relatively occasional performer in a small originals band (think Jackson Browne) comprising bass, keys, electric guitar, acoustic guitar, a couple of vocals, and (currently) tracked drums off a laptop. Often everything feeds straight into the PA with just personal monitoring on stage.

[alexis]

For context, I'm a relatively occasional performer in a small originals band (think Jackson Browne) comprising bass, keys, electric guitar, acoustic guitar, a couple of vocals, and (currently) tracked drums off a laptop. Often everything feeds straight into the PA with just personal monitoring on stage.

Sounds absolutely lovely, very happy for you!
.

There are countless 'full range' compact PA speakers like the Bose system at different costs, sizes, powers and qualities. The decent ones sound better than most keyboard combos, in my opinion.

I think the S1s do a very decent job on synths, pianos (electric and acoustic), strings, and organ. Certainly good enough for local monitoring and generally effective as a back line for smaller and semi-acoustic gigs.

It's true that the S1s don't have the real low end weight for organ pedals or synth bass lines, but the main PA can usually fill that in. Or I can lug along the Bose sub1 if necessary.

Few dedicated keyboard amps can deliver that low end, either, of course (you'd really need something the size of a Leslie 122 with a 15 inch woofer!) so they still have no real advantage over the Bose and lots of size/weight disadvantages, plus I get stereo whereas most keyboard amps are mono (important for EPs and Leslie effects).

Obviously, this is largely a matter of personal preference and practicality... but I wouldn't go back to big heavy Roland KCs, let alone my old Leslie speakers!!!

Thank you for that perspective, Hugh!

[tacitus]

X The function band I play in is a 9/10 piece outfit so we have all these problems and more with PA vs personal amps, but we have to modify it as we go along as no two gigs are the same. Most of our gigs are weddings, so we’re not looking to produce amazing volume but aim for decent clarity so that auntie Mabel and grandpa George can discuss their tomatoes at the back without shouting too loud.

When we’re a 9-piece, I’m taking a Bari sax and keyboard so I need simple monitoring for the keys; if it works with the horn section that’s a plus. So it’s usually a 12” floor monitor rather than the 10” ones we normally use. If the occasion demands all of us going through the PA, I use the monitor as a normal floor monitor, if not I turn it round so it’s effectively a back-line speaker everyone can hear.

A moment’s thought will suggest the sound doesn’t behave exactly like that, but it works well enough, and I play far more sax than keys, almost all the latter involving screaming tonewheel or bright piano tones.

A friend way back in school days pointed out that keyboards in bands should generally be played one-handed*; the other can fiddle with drawbars and knobs while being ready to help carry the typically 50Kg+ “lightweight” combo organs we used back then …

* I played in a band once that had two keyboards, both played by pianist-types so essentially playing different arrangements of the whole piece at the same time. Along with multiple guitars and basically too much of everything. I learnt a lot about making vocals audible and mains distribution quiet and reliable very quickly!

[BigRedX]

My band is a three piece - keyboards, bass/guitar, vocals with drums and second keyboards on backing.

We have completely dispensed with all personal backline monitoring and everything goes direct into the PA. It was made both the FoH and on-stage sound much more manageable and clearer. However all the venues we play have in-house PA systems and we are not precious about having a perfect on-stage sound. So long as we can hear that we are in time and in tune with each other and the backing that is fine.

If we did need to have our own PA system a pair of RCF735s and a basic IEM system driven off a Behringer X16 or X18 would be perfectly adequate for most venues and we'd hire a suitable system for anywhere bigger that didn't already have something in-house.

Ultimately your needs will very much be driven by the kinds of venues you play. In the past 20 years the only venues I have played that didn't have a decent in-house PA system were ones that we had specifically chosen to play that didn't usually put on live music.

[Arpangel]

What your friend said about PA systems isn’t really true, any PA shouldn’t distort if managed correctly, and the frequency response of a decent PA will be better than a full-range keyboard amp.
If it were me, I'd stick with a good keyboard amp, or, as Hugh suggested something like a Bose system if you’re after a more "hi-fi" type sound.
And as James said, if you go through a PA you’ll need monitors, which ads complications.
I think a band always sounds more "homogenous" when using back-line, and you can balance your sound easily, plus, some keyboards do benefit from a certain amp sound, a Rhodes for instance sounds great through the right valve amp.

[alexis]

...

* I played in a band once that had two keyboards, both played by pianist-types so essentially playing different arrangements of the whole piece at the same time. Along with multiple guitars and basically too much of everything...

This sounds more than somewhat like the band I'm in ...

I learnt a lot about making vocals audible and mains distribution quiet and reliable very quickly!

We are so much on that same road here!

Thank you everyone, including BigRedX and Arpangel!

[RichardT]

Lots of different perspectives here - but I think some of it, as you say, is down to your use of 'keyboard amp'. I assumed you didn't necessarily strictly mean a keyboard amp - just your own monitoring system

I used to have a Roland keyboard amp and in line with what Hugh says it was pretty poor, but then I upgraded to a small Yamaha general purpose system that was much, much better. The test was getting a realistic piano sound with proper tone and transients - EP and pad sounds are much less fussy about amplification.

The other dimension, which ties in to what Big Red X says, is what is available already at the venue!

[The Elf]

I don't understand why a keyboard player wouldn't want to go straight out to a full bandwidth PA. If the PA is restricting the audio in some way then it's doing that to everything going through it, which would be a worrying thing...

[James Perrett]

I don't understand why a keyboard player wouldn't want to go straight out to a full bandwidth PA. If the PA is restricting the audio in some way then it's doing that to everything going through it, which would be a worrying thing...

You missed the question about the PA that they were thinking of buying - basically a cheap Maplin job. (For non-UK readers, Maplin were the UK equivalent of Radio Shack).

Alexis has also said that the band have no experience with PAs - which means that there is unlikely to be anything decent to hand and almost certainly no-one to drive it properly.

[tacitus]

When I was in that band full of pianists and rhythm guitarists, all the PA was players’ own amps, with a Fender Passport for vocals. We rehearsed in a Guides HQ with ceilings I could touch and huge fluorescent tubes that f****d the Fender guitarist’s pickups something awful.

Fortunately natural wastage got us down to a more workable size pretty soon.

[Arpangel]

Fortunately natural wastage got us down to a more workable size pretty soon.

Unfortunately our drummer became too familiar with our female vocalist and it did that job very well indeed.

[ManFromGlass]

Wot? She chose the drummer? No guitar player in the band?

[Scramble]

>keys often do much better through a keyboard amp than a "regular" PA system.

Not true. In fact, it's usually the other way around. Keyboard amps can be mediocre. I never liked Roland's KC range either. For that reason I switched to using a single PA active monitor for my keyboard amp instead of a regular keyboard amp.

>the frequency response of the main PA not being as good as a keyboard amp

Again, not true... unless it's a cheap, mediocre PA.

>the keyboard would push the main PA to levels where it's more likely to distort unless it were purchased to be big enough to handle that.

If the PA is not powerful enough then this could be true.

>a separate keyboard amp is a good idea to supplement the main band PA?

If your PA is distorting because it doesn't have the required power then this is definitely something you could do to help, if you don't want to buy a new PA, although it might make mixing harder.

>But I am concerned I may have posed my question poorly. I'm choosing between joining the rest of the band in being projected through the PA, vs the audience hearing my sound through a separate speaker - which I sloppily called a keyboard amp.

A decent PA with enough power won't have any trouble handling all your sources (I've put far more through PAs). But again, if it's a poor PA, or a PA without enough power, a separate speaker (whether a keyboard amp or an active monitor) could help.

Some keyboard players (like me) like to have their own speaker just to make sure they can hear themselves. You can also choose to go through the PA as well if the situation demands, but this means you need a way of splitting the signal, like a DI box. (I also used to use a small mixer to control everything, but that does make things more complicated.)

>Other choices I have are whether to have my keyboard projected in stereo

You could do, but that will make things more complicated if you're going to use your own speakers. Are you going to buy two speakers and carry them around with you? Also, if they're close together on stage the audience is unlikely to get much of a stereo effect.

If you do decide to use your own speaker I would personally start off with mono, and see how that goes for a while. After things have settled down, then you can think about whether you need stereo.

>I see the three form factors for an individual keyboard speaker are "keyboard amp", usually on the floor in grimy of the keyboardist; regular old PA speakers on poles, and column speakers.

Another option is buying a wedge-shaped speaker and putting it on the floor so it's aimed at your head, although that's only suitable if you're just using it as a personal monitor, and not as backline. Having it on a pole is better if you want the audience to hear it, and also that means it will be louder for you too if you have a loud band and are struggling to hear yourself.

One problem with a keyboard amp is that it will just blast at your knees, but if you angle it up at you so you can hear it better then it will be pointing at the ceiling, and the audience won't hear it very well. Best to put it on top of a road case or something.

[alexis]

>keys ...

Thanks for the comprehensive review, Scramble.

I already have personal monitoring covered, with a small personal mixer feeding some IEMs.

What we'll do is start by getting a new PA system for the band (our old one is broken now).

I guess I now have to study up on how to size the PA we're going to buy so that it can handle everything without being underpowered, I saw something by a reasonable sounding guy on youtube, and I know there's a lot of other stuff on line as well.

Thanks!

[Arpangel]

Wot? She chose the drummer? No guitar player in the band?

The guitarist liked her too, and a row occurred, it resulted in our 8 piece band becoming a duo.

[Scramble]

If you have a personal monitor already, and you're getting a new PA, then I definitely *wouldn't* get a separate keyboard amp. Put the money for that towards a decent PA, preferably with one or two subwoofers, or at least 15" speakers on your tops if you're not getting subs. (That is one way in which a keyboard amp can be better for a keyboard than a PA, if the PA doesn't have big enough speakers to handle the lower end of the keyboard.)

[Arpangel]

If you have a personal monitor already, and you're getting a new PA, then I definitely *wouldn't* get a separate keyboard amp. Put the money for that towards a decent PA, preferably with one or two subwoofers, or at least 15" speakers on your tops if you're not getting subs. (That is one way in which a keyboard amp can be better for a keyboard than a PA, if the PA doesn't have big enough speakers to handle the lower end of the keyboard.)

You’re right about the low end, but you’d need a pretty big and expensive keys amp to get that bass, better off, as you say putting that money towards a good PA.