Recording a string trio in a bad room

[Bob Bickerton]

Interesting space but not unworkable.

The two walls centre gallery look like they're temporary - will they be in for the concert? Worth checking. Also worth checking how much flexibility you have in terms of placement of the ensemble within the room.

I'd still be thinking of a pair of omnis and provided you have some flexibility with placement, you can usefully avoid a spot on the cello.

Hugh's idea of utilising the lighting rails is excellent. You could easily rig a couple of omnis, either off a small bar or simply dropped off the rail, using switched-off light fittings as rigging points.

With this approach, and subject to flexibility, you could rig the mics at 'best-guess' positioning and then move the ensemble to optimum.

Bob

[SoundOutWest]

Quick update for anybody still following:

The gig is in 2 days, the musicians are quite excited and grateful to get a recording.

The trio will now be playing on a small portable stage, the soft carpeted surface of which should remove the floor reflections.

The biggest change is that I've found out that there will be another AV tech doing sound reinforcement on that day. I've spoken to him and he's a great guy, but having a pair of PA speakers there really throws a wrench in the works - nor do I see why it's needed. I was ready to have a spaced pair of cardiods behind the audience (the audience seating is very short, maybe 6m) which I could mix with the mono spot mics.

At this point my hopes are to somehow get the speakers turned off for recording (unlikely) or maybe place ambient mics *behind* the ensemble and therefore behind the speakers.

When recording piano trios, it's common to solo mic all the performers and then have an "ambient pair" of cardiods pointed up to the ceiling behind the piano. The ambient pair is mixed with the mono mics at a fairly low level to give the illusion of a normal recording. I'm effectively trying to this, except I cannot point the mics upwards due to the low ceiling. Where else could I point them? I'm not sure. I could point them at the musicians from behind, but that might cause weird colorations.

[Bob Bickerton]

This is a disaster in the making.

First of all (and speaking of a producer of professional chamber music of 50 years), absolutely NO amplification. It's a tiny venue. Clearly whoever is producing this event, doesn't have a clue (unless it's a trio playing contemporary music with electronic FX etc).

Secondly, you ONLY need a stereo pair, forget the cardioid's at the back of the room and the spot mics.

Bob

[ef37a]

"If you can't beat 'em..."?

If you cannot get the PA speakers turned off then maybe hope the sound tech has done a bang up job capturing the band and take feed from his mixer?

Hugh and others might have experience of getting a good "classical" microphone recording in the midst of what is likely to be far from accurate sound reproduction but, very very difficult I would imagine?

I recall many moons ago a Sitar player (might have been Ravi!) playing at our technical college hall and he was "reinforced" very tastefully by a Quad ESL either side of him powered by two Q2s. I was not privy to the make of mic or pre amp.

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Everything about this rang alarm bells from the start, and now the sirens have started up.

I'd bow out and leave the recording to the PA guy...

There is zero chance of getting anything that sounds like a good classical string trio recording out of this. And if it's not going to be a recording you can be proud of, to put on your demo reel to market your skills and services, what's the point?

Offer to do a separate recording in a good location if the trio are keen on having a good recording to show them at their best. Better to do it for free for a good result, than get paid for an unsalvagable job.

All IMHO, having been there long ago and learned the hard way.

[ghellquist]

I am 100% with Hugh here (as often). It is a disaster in waiting.

The combination of a chamber orchestra, a bad acoustic space and a PA system -- oops, nothing good can come out of this.

[mantraslider]

Contact mics?

[mantraslider]

Typically, I'd ALWAYS rather work with the most isolated sound possible first. I'd sacrifice tone for isolation, simply because, from experience, having the ability to fix something as surgically as I like is a better option than having to stick with the way something sounds, cause fixing it would mean having a massive effect on everything else. Admittedly, I don't have any experience with strings, and judging by some quick examples on the internet dynamic mics don't sound that good on strings.

If I had to do this with my lack of experience, I'd stick a few different types of mics on everything, even for just recordings sake (so muted at the PA, if it needs to stay on), then try my best to blend and mix and stuff in post. Add a stereo pair for room, and pray it works ok.

[Bob Bickerton]

Typically, I'd ALWAYS rather work with the most isolated sound possible first. I'd sacrifice tone for isolation, simply because, from experience, having the ability to fix something as surgically as I like is a better option than having to stick with the way something sounds, cause fixing it would mean having a massive effect on everything else. Admittedly, I don't have any experience with strings, and judging by some quick examples on the internet dynamic mics don't sound that good on strings.

If I had to do this with my lack of experience, I'd stick a few different types of mics on everything, even for just recordings sake (so muted at the PA, if it needs to stay on), then try my best to blend and mix and stuff in post. Add a stereo pair for room, and pray it works ok.

With all due respect this is chamber music and requires an entirely different approach. A stereo pair of mics to capture the performance in the room is normally all that’s required.

Bob

[mantraslider]

Typically, I'd ALWAYS rather work with the most isolated sound possible first. I'd sacrifice tone for isolation, simply because, from experience, having the ability to fix something as surgically as I like is a better option than having to stick with the way something sounds, cause fixing it would mean having a massive effect on everything else. Admittedly, I don't have any experience with strings, and judging by some quick examples on the internet dynamic mics don't sound that good on strings.

If I had to do this with my lack of experience, I'd stick a few different types of mics on everything, even for just recordings sake (so muted at the PA, if it needs to stay on), then try my best to blend and mix and stuff in post. Add a stereo pair for room, and pray it works ok.

With all due respect this is chamber music and requires an entirely different approach. A stereo pair of mics to capture the performance in the room is normally all that’s required.

Bob

Fair, there's my lack of experience

[Bob Bickerton]

Might be worth looking into, I find it fascinating. Lots of good articles on the site by Hugh.

Bob

[Arpangel]

This is a disaster in the making.

First of all (and speaking of a producer of professional chamber music of 50 years), absolutely NO amplification. It's a tiny venue. Clearly whoever is producing this event, doesn't have a clue (unless it's a trio playing contemporary music with electronic FX etc).

Secondly, you ONLY need a stereo pair, forget the cardioid's at the back of the room and the spot mics.

Bob

Bob is right, just a stereo pair, and, get close, as Hugh says, experiment with omni's and cardioids, see what you prefer but not too wide, a short stereo bar spaced at about 20cm would be fine, about 3/4m high, and "about" 3m in front of the quartet, If you’re careful you shouldn’t even need spot mic's.
Absolutely no PA, should not be needed in any way.
There is nothing unusual about this gig, it’s very straightforward,
typical of situations I’ve come across, you’ll be fine.

[Arpangel]

How did it go!

[Martin Walker]

Yes, I'm wondering this too - whether you ran screaming to the hills or tried to make the best of a bad job

[Arpangel]

We need to know!

[ghellquist]

in 3 weeks I'm recording a viola, violin and cello in an art gallery. The whole building is just glass and tiles
Any thoughts? Things I've missed?

Hi!
How did it go? Would be interesting to hear your about your experiences.