Hopefully not me being crucified:
I asked if I could record a performance of Stainer's 'Crucifixion' in a local church on Palm Sunday. Slightly surprised to get a really enthusiastic response from the maestro, who's quite the whizz with local choirs, and the organ's being played by a former president of the local organists' association to which I belong. I know some of the singers of old so I want to do my very best.
The Church is Mears Ashby (Northamptonshire) which has a well-regarded William Hill organ of 1903, recently restored and situated with the console in the chancel. Fortunately with the side speaking out to the nave, rather than having a chapel in the way.
I haven't been in the church, but the pictures look fairly encouraging, and I may be able to get a good balance with a single pair, possibly Line Audio CM3s or 4s in a NOS setup or thereabouts. I can run a pair facing the front of the organ for extra detail, but I'm not clear how well this might work as there wouldn't be that much separation between mike pairs, as specified in the Decca 'bible'. An alto on the conductor's left could lean pretty much on the corner of the organ case but for the pillar right in front of it.
Personally, I have no problem with the organ being to the left, but if I need more than I get from a single pair, what's the cleanest way of manipulating all this? I don't think there'll be a specific need for omnis for bass as there's only a 16' pedal stop and the CM3/4 should get that OK, if my experience with wind band tubas translates.
I'd be using my Zoom F6, so I could put up a pair of ambience mikes, but the church looks closer to a (very) large sitting room than a cathedral, so I'm not sure about that. I should get some rehearsal to test some setups.
I'm reasonably confident I can get most, even all, of there way with a single pair. The choir should be competent but not huge enough to drown the organ. If the organ's as nice as I've been told, I can see it being desirable to get some good detail as well as it performing the space, and that's where I start scratching my head. Using the Zoom will be a bit hit and run - I'll have headphones but not speakers (can't see where I'd put 'em in the pictures I have). Any suggestions to get choir and organ in a mixable form to take home and deal with will be very welcome indeed. Fling wide the Gates!
Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
My take on this. Amateur musician (bassoon) and recording enthusiast.
1:st priority is to get a good mix from a stereo pair. I use ORTF (have a mic setup for that) but see no reason why NOS should not be equally good. It works to listen on headphones to try to get the mics in the best possible position. At least 2 meters up but more is preferable. I tend to aim at choir, having them covering max 100 degrees as seen from stereo mic. Listen for a good balance of the organ and choir. A trick I sometimes use is to listen with only one ear for the best position. Some rooms has odd acoustics above a certain height, some below a certain height. Some rooms has odd places where things sound weird -- you have to listen.
As you have more channels and more mics you may elect, if having the time, to set up more mics and record them on isolated channels. Might be spot mic on singer soloist (generally not needed in my experience) and maybe spots on organ. Make a sketch (map) of where the mics are and what distances you have from the main stereo pair to the spot mics. Personally I never setup ambience mics but YMMV.
Ideally when coming home there will be no need to use the spot mics in the mix. When I use spot mics I delay them. The aim is to get the sound from the main stereo pair first, and the spot mics later. This helps in not confusing the brain with placement in stereo field (first arrivals to the ears sets the perceived stereo position). Speed of air is about 343 meters / second, so one meter is roughly 3 milliseconds. Measure from stereo pair to spot mic. Mix to taste, might differ between different musical pieces. Mixes often gets better from a high pass filter removing the worst of lorry traffic. Might benefit from little bit of reverb. Might benefit from a slight amount of compression. With amateur choirs sometimes a little EQ to dampen those soprano notes. All depending to taste.
I usually treat presenter texts and applauds on a separate channel from the music -- checkerboarding the relevant sections to new mono channel. Helps in setting levels and processing.
1:st priority is to get a good mix from a stereo pair. I use ORTF (have a mic setup for that) but see no reason why NOS should not be equally good. It works to listen on headphones to try to get the mics in the best possible position. At least 2 meters up but more is preferable. I tend to aim at choir, having them covering max 100 degrees as seen from stereo mic. Listen for a good balance of the organ and choir. A trick I sometimes use is to listen with only one ear for the best position. Some rooms has odd acoustics above a certain height, some below a certain height. Some rooms has odd places where things sound weird -- you have to listen.
As you have more channels and more mics you may elect, if having the time, to set up more mics and record them on isolated channels. Might be spot mic on singer soloist (generally not needed in my experience) and maybe spots on organ. Make a sketch (map) of where the mics are and what distances you have from the main stereo pair to the spot mics. Personally I never setup ambience mics but YMMV.
Ideally when coming home there will be no need to use the spot mics in the mix. When I use spot mics I delay them. The aim is to get the sound from the main stereo pair first, and the spot mics later. This helps in not confusing the brain with placement in stereo field (first arrivals to the ears sets the perceived stereo position). Speed of air is about 343 meters / second, so one meter is roughly 3 milliseconds. Measure from stereo pair to spot mic. Mix to taste, might differ between different musical pieces. Mixes often gets better from a high pass filter removing the worst of lorry traffic. Might benefit from little bit of reverb. Might benefit from a slight amount of compression. With amateur choirs sometimes a little EQ to dampen those soprano notes. All depending to taste.
I usually treat presenter texts and applauds on a separate channel from the music -- checkerboarding the relevant sections to new mono channel. Helps in setting levels and processing.
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- ghellquist
Poster - Posts: 87 Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:00 am
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
Hi, Ghellquist!
Nice to talk to another amateur bassoonist who records.
Good points you make - I’m thinking I’ll put a pair of ambience omnis up, as the audience/congregation have to sing a couple of hymns. I expect there’ll be plenty of musicians there, so they’ll step up for that.
What my rambling post (sorry about that) didn’t make very clear was my confusion about overlaying different pairs into the stereo image, which can easily be done if they’re far enough apart, but not necessarily when you have potentially conflicting pairs much closer than the c.10 metres apart mentioned in the Decca recording book. I’ll probably have the choir pair near the conductor and the ambience mikes between the choir and audience. I expect the organ will be loud enough but might want more detail. Which in principle suggests a pair in the chancel, facing the console/front pipes. And picking up the choir that’s going to mid/right mains in the left organ mike.
In the past I’ve tackled solo organ with the pair aimed at the corner of the organ. Worked well but probably not the solution for a choir as well. I’ll ask the conductor what his plans are for the soloists; I suspect they’ll sing with the choir and remain more or less in situ for solos. If I have 6 omnis and 6 cardioids with me I should manage …
Nice to talk to another amateur bassoonist who records.
Good points you make - I’m thinking I’ll put a pair of ambience omnis up, as the audience/congregation have to sing a couple of hymns. I expect there’ll be plenty of musicians there, so they’ll step up for that.
What my rambling post (sorry about that) didn’t make very clear was my confusion about overlaying different pairs into the stereo image, which can easily be done if they’re far enough apart, but not necessarily when you have potentially conflicting pairs much closer than the c.10 metres apart mentioned in the Decca recording book. I’ll probably have the choir pair near the conductor and the ambience mikes between the choir and audience. I expect the organ will be loud enough but might want more detail. Which in principle suggests a pair in the chancel, facing the console/front pipes. And picking up the choir that’s going to mid/right mains in the left organ mike.
In the past I’ve tackled solo organ with the pair aimed at the corner of the organ. Worked well but probably not the solution for a choir as well. I’ll ask the conductor what his plans are for the soloists; I suspect they’ll sing with the choir and remain more or less in situ for solos. If I have 6 omnis and 6 cardioids with me I should manage …
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
I'm struggling so exhausted to envisage the setup, and I've no idea of the acoustics...
...but if you have any multipattern mics (or ribbons), I've often found using a fig-8 pattern helpful when organs are awkwardly positioned and you need to exclude a choir at the side for mix separation.
Spaced but parallel fig-8s (20-30cm) — à la Faulkner — gives a good stereo impression without compromising the rejection of the side source.
But where the whole setup is too compromised I just record it as the audience heard it with a stereo pair positioned the best I can...
Live events aren't dedicated recording sessions and compromises are inevitable — especially in venues not designed with recordings in mind!
...but if you have any multipattern mics (or ribbons), I've often found using a fig-8 pattern helpful when organs are awkwardly positioned and you need to exclude a choir at the side for mix separation.
Spaced but parallel fig-8s (20-30cm) — à la Faulkner — gives a good stereo impression without compromising the rejection of the side source.
But where the whole setup is too compromised I just record it as the audience heard it with a stereo pair positioned the best I can...
Live events aren't dedicated recording sessions and compromises are inevitable — especially in venues not designed with recordings in mind!
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- Hugh Robjohns
Moderator -
Posts: 43680 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
Thanks for your input, Hugh, both the fig 8 and the 'live is not a session' ideas sound really worth while.
I don't know the acoustic, either, but looking at online images, I think the organ may well be plenty loud enough, and depending on which pipes fire most noticeably through the arch on the left of the nave behind which the organ is sited, could even be detailed enough. I don't think the choir will be big enough to swamp it in sound or insulate it from the main mikes, so I'm probably worrying too much. And as I replied to gellquist, I may have more of an issue with the soloists; still no idea how they'll be presented.
I'll put my pair of ribbons in, at least. I'm sure that'll give the most organ for the least bleed of the choir.
TBH, while I want to do my very best, it's not a commission, and it's' only me beating myself up. Supposed to be a bit of experience, thigh I'm hooping the organ is nice enough to record solo for the organists's association at some time.
Finally, Hugh, I think I've found an effective way of simulating exhaustion while posting about classical music - I'm playing Zappa's Grand Wazoo as I type, and it's doin' me 'ead in!
I don't know the acoustic, either, but looking at online images, I think the organ may well be plenty loud enough, and depending on which pipes fire most noticeably through the arch on the left of the nave behind which the organ is sited, could even be detailed enough. I don't think the choir will be big enough to swamp it in sound or insulate it from the main mikes, so I'm probably worrying too much. And as I replied to gellquist, I may have more of an issue with the soloists; still no idea how they'll be presented.
I'll put my pair of ribbons in, at least. I'm sure that'll give the most organ for the least bleed of the choir.
TBH, while I want to do my very best, it's not a commission, and it's' only me beating myself up. Supposed to be a bit of experience, thigh I'm hooping the organ is nice enough to record solo for the organists's association at some time.
Finally, Hugh, I think I've found an effective way of simulating exhaustion while posting about classical music - I'm playing Zappa's Grand Wazoo as I type, and it's doin' me 'ead in!
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
Finally, Hugh, I think I've found an effective way of simulating exhaustion while posting about classical music - I'm playing Zappa's Grand Wazoo as I type, and it's doin' me 'ead in!
thigh I'm hooping
Clearly!!!
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
Yes, I’ve typed and moved on by the time auto-correct’s stuck its oar in. I can’t put some records on and leave them in my mental background; Grand Wazoo’s one (of many Zappa albums), so are much Rachmaninov and Tchaikovsky. Why can’t I stop actively listening to C major scales in Tchaikovsky’s Serenade for Strings?
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
I don't know the acoustic, either, but looking at online images, I think the organ may well be plenty loud enough
I am unsure how you can determine that from photographs, but I am sure it does what it was built to do, that is, accompany a choir and lead a congregation. As a solo instrument, the info from the NPOR would suggest it will be rather limited in scope.
It is excellent that an historic instrument has been well restored and maintained, although regrettable, in my view, that the only interesting stop, the Keraulophon, was replaced by a 'Fifteenth' in 2006. (The NPOR needs updating).
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
The bit I can guess from the photos is that there’s nothing to the left of the organ to impede sound going into the nave, albeit far left. The other bits are that the conductor of this Crucifixion has played the organ and evidently doesn’t anticipate a problem (he’s as experienced with choirs as with organs) and the fact that other members of the local association know the instrument and are likewise unconcerned.
I left that bit out originally for brevity. Alas, I can’t tell any better than anyone else how loud it might be from a photo (other than seeing the arch between the organ and the nave which appears to be acoustically transparent). Unless maybe it has a Marshall label on it! It’s certainly on a far grander scale than the one I play in my village, a single manual Holdich which sounds very nice but is easily drowned by a full congregation in the church (less than a hundred).
I read something about replacing the keraulophon recently, but I’m dashed if I can remember what it was and where I read it …
I left that bit out originally for brevity. Alas, I can’t tell any better than anyone else how loud it might be from a photo (other than seeing the arch between the organ and the nave which appears to be acoustically transparent). Unless maybe it has a Marshall label on it! It’s certainly on a far grander scale than the one I play in my village, a single manual Holdich which sounds very nice but is easily drowned by a full congregation in the church (less than a hundred).
I read something about replacing the keraulophon recently, but I’m dashed if I can remember what it was and where I read it …
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
And now I think about it, if I put a Faulkner array in front of the organ, the side rejection will be fine, I’m sure, but what about everything bouncing off the chancel wall directly into the backs of the fig 8 mikes? Will I have to mount them high, pointing down at the organ so the backs point into the roof somewhere?
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
Who knows? Thats what ears are for.
The reflections might be good, or you might be able to balance them by moving the mics closer or farther from the wall. Or you might need to angle them, or hang something absorptive behind them...
... or switch to hypercardioid and angle the mics a little differently...
It's good to use your knowledge and experience to come up with some likely options in advance, but as Helmuth von Moltke is reputed to have said, no plan survives contact with the enemy! Youre going to have to fine tune it on the day when you can hear what you're really dealing with.
The reflections might be good, or you might be able to balance them by moving the mics closer or farther from the wall. Or you might need to angle them, or hang something absorptive behind them...
... or switch to hypercardioid and angle the mics a little differently...
It's good to use your knowledge and experience to come up with some likely options in advance, but as Helmuth von Moltke is reputed to have said, no plan survives contact with the enemy! Youre going to have to fine tune it on the day when you can hear what you're really dealing with.
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- Hugh Robjohns
Moderator -
Posts: 43680 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Contact:
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
Well, it’s been a journey and I’m not there yet. I know several of the singers and they gave me wildly different estimates of the size of the choir - between 25 and 60!
Going back to the pictures, I was fairly sure they wouldn’t get 60 singers in front of the chancel arch, but I couldn’t get any other help from real people, so I turned up as early as I could and got ready to panic.
So, it turned out the choir was about 50 strong, the spaces are all generally smaller than the library photo I’d been working from (taken with the proverbial estate agents’ lens), and the choir was shoehorned into the chancel. I set up a pair of omnis just behind the conductor, and another pair of omni flankers a bit further away (so they were audience-side of the soloists, the sole occupants of the space in front of the chancel arch).
The possibility of having mikes in front of the organ was thus blighted by the space being full of choir and anywhere I could put mikes would pick up more choir than organ. In desperation I put up a parallel pair of fig. 8 ribbons pointing down into the back of the organ through the open arch to the left of the chancel.
By this time the omni mikes (AT4022s) were all set up, although the soloists weren’t in place for the rehearsal. So I had a bit of a bran tub situation, not helped by the arrival on stage of extra singers after I’d set the Zoom F6 going for the concert. One was a powerful soprano right next to the main left mike.
I left everything running but I have no idea what I’ve captured as I had to tear down and scoot off to go on holiday. Won’t be back until the Easter weekend. All I can say at this stage is that it’s definitely live, not a session.
Hopefully there’ll be something that represents the performance reasonably. I should be able to boost the organ a little in the loud bits; it mostly sounded OK from where I sat and I think we’re going to have an off-centre organ. No problem live; recorded, I’m not so sure.
I’m enjoying my holiday before I grapple with this on my return. At least everyone knows it’s for my own education, not for release! They were all solicitously asking if I’d got what I wanted, in fact.
Incidentally, I was unsure when recording 32-bit float whether to use the FetHeads I have for my Recording Tools MRP01 ribbons or not. In the end I didn’t. Was that a good choice?
Going back to the pictures, I was fairly sure they wouldn’t get 60 singers in front of the chancel arch, but I couldn’t get any other help from real people, so I turned up as early as I could and got ready to panic.
So, it turned out the choir was about 50 strong, the spaces are all generally smaller than the library photo I’d been working from (taken with the proverbial estate agents’ lens), and the choir was shoehorned into the chancel. I set up a pair of omnis just behind the conductor, and another pair of omni flankers a bit further away (so they were audience-side of the soloists, the sole occupants of the space in front of the chancel arch).
The possibility of having mikes in front of the organ was thus blighted by the space being full of choir and anywhere I could put mikes would pick up more choir than organ. In desperation I put up a parallel pair of fig. 8 ribbons pointing down into the back of the organ through the open arch to the left of the chancel.
By this time the omni mikes (AT4022s) were all set up, although the soloists weren’t in place for the rehearsal. So I had a bit of a bran tub situation, not helped by the arrival on stage of extra singers after I’d set the Zoom F6 going for the concert. One was a powerful soprano right next to the main left mike.
I left everything running but I have no idea what I’ve captured as I had to tear down and scoot off to go on holiday. Won’t be back until the Easter weekend. All I can say at this stage is that it’s definitely live, not a session.
Hopefully there’ll be something that represents the performance reasonably. I should be able to boost the organ a little in the loud bits; it mostly sounded OK from where I sat and I think we’re going to have an off-centre organ. No problem live; recorded, I’m not so sure.
I’m enjoying my holiday before I grapple with this on my return. At least everyone knows it’s for my own education, not for release! They were all solicitously asking if I’d got what I wanted, in fact.
Incidentally, I was unsure when recording 32-bit float whether to use the FetHeads I have for my Recording Tools MRP01 ribbons or not. In the end I didn’t. Was that a good choice?
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
You'll find out... but I suspect you'll be fine.
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- Hugh Robjohns
Moderator -
Posts: 43680 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Contact:
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Choir on chancel steps, organ in chancel - Crucifixion!
So do I; but you base your opinion on experience and I base mine on blind hope!
Whatever else, it’s been a lesson in preparation; I expect I’ll have a load more to sort out in edit. I can’t believe how much longer it takes to learn all this stuff as I get older. Very thankful for the level-headedness at SOS (and the humour and general determination to wander wildly off topic now and then)!
Whatever else, it’s been a lesson in preparation; I expect I’ll have a load more to sort out in edit. I can’t believe how much longer it takes to learn all this stuff as I get older. Very thankful for the level-headedness at SOS (and the humour and general determination to wander wildly off topic now and then)!