AI generated album art

[Drew Stephenson]

Is there a reliable way to tell AI generated music from human generated?

Benn Jordan is working on this too and has a solution in the works. Obviously has to keep things underwraps because explaining how it really works is also an explanation of how to defeat it.
The challenge is that oodles of venture capital cash is being chucked at AI, much less and how to manage it.

[Albatross]

Is there a reliable way to tell AI generated music from human generated?

Yep, play it yourself or watch someone else playing it.

[Sam Spoons]

For those who do facebook what do we think of this (I know what I think). https://www.facebook.com/10007594396579 ... 1863725904.

Is there a reliable way to tell AI generated music from human generated?

You probably won't need it. Apparently, AI generated music lacks something called 'soul', so the difference should be a night and day - like the difference between 'wood' and 'tonewood' in the sound of an electric guitar.

Ah, yes, so you mean there's no difference?

[Martin Walker]

For those who do facebook what do we think of this (I know what I think). https://www.facebook.com/10007594396579 ... 1863725904.

Nicely put together tune, but I did feel that the envelope decay of each note of the guitar melody sounded too smooth and 'perfectly consistent', as did the vibrato everytime it was used, which to me suggested AI.

And not a single reassuring string squeak in evidence!

[Albatross]

I heard Nick Park (Wallace & Gromit) interviewed on the radio and he was asked if he was concerned about AI and the implications for his work. He said that AI could copy him, but he went on to say that if you look closely you can see the fingerprints in the clay, the accidental errors that give the characters enexpected expressions and that its the human error and imperfections that gives it the charm.

[Sam Spoons]

For those who do facebook what do we think of this (I know what I think). https://www.facebook.com/10007594396579 ... 1863725904.

Nicely put together tune, but I did feel that the envelope decay of each note of the guitar melody sounded too smooth and 'perfectly consistent', as did the vibrato everytime it was used, which to me suggested AI.

And not a single reassuring string squeak in evidence!

Yes, very consistent attack too on the lead guitar, which sounds like a sample (at the very least) too. I've looked at a bit of the posters previous and he doesn't appear to be a guitarist (says his main instrument is melodica) so that clinches it for me. It could be midi using a Band In A Box rhythm section or similar with the lead played on a keyboard but I think it's AI. The giveaway for me is that no gypsy jazzer would play the head four times with only the slightest variations.

The rhythm guitar is pretty good, but we strive for consistency and accuracy when playing rhythm so that's probably easier to fake.

FWIW my fellow mods have agreed that anything sounding like AI should be 'declined'...

[Martin Walker]

The rhythm guitar is pretty good, but we strive for consistency and accuracy when playing rhythm so that's probably easier to fake.

FWIW my fellow mods have agreed that anything sounding like AI should be 'declined'...

Yes, I agree about the greater difficulty in diagnosing the rhythm guitar as AI because this is indeed easier to play with consistency.

As for declining suspect AI submissions on your FB group in future, I think that's a brave decision, as it will almost inevitably result in at least a few angry people, but I would hope that the majority of your members will agree that this is the best approach.

Good luck!

Martin

[OneWorld]

Is there a reliable way to tell AI generated music from human generated?

You probably won't need it. Apparently, AI generated music lacks something called 'soul', so the difference should be a night and day - like the difference between 'wood' and 'tonewood' in the sound of an electric guitar.

"Is there a reliable way to tell AI generated music from human generated?"

Would that be the 'Tuneing' Test?

[BWC]

...because explaining how it really works is also an explanation of how to defeat it.

Which also probably means it'll be easy to defeat after reverse engineering. The more secrecy required, the less secure the system.

[N i g e l]

Yes, I agree about the greater difficulty in diagnosing the rhythm guitar as AI because this is indeed easier to play with consistency.

As for declining suspect AI submissions on your FB group in future, I think that's a brave decision, as it will almost inevitably result in at least a few angry people

of which I will probably be one .

as a MIDI user I can quantise to a % of tightness or run a randomise.cal to achieve looseness of timing or vol or {other parameter}.

AI will be my servant. I was recently inspired to see that i could whip it to produce scenes for "pop video" style clips, that i could then leverage to distract viewers from my music on a channel like U tube.

eg This is vid, based on Blade Runner but styled as 1940s Film Noir is "tracked" from several Ai scenes, which are then processed together by the user, in their style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSlfM_bD3ao&t=9s

note the inconsistancy of character detail between scenes {Dekard} . Also Roy Baty is from Ice cold in Alex but Im not sure which one..

ps lovin those 21st century flying cars

[Drew Stephenson]

...because explaining how it really works is also an explanation of how to defeat it.

Which also probably means it'll be easy to defeat after reverse engineering. The more secrecy required, the less secure the system.

Indeed, I suspect it will become something of an arms race. Though on further reading it does appear that part of the reason for the secrecy was actually other people trying to copy the mechanism before he patented it.

[Drew Stephenson]

In terms of AI use wider, I've vacillated all over the shop on this. I think I'm currently in "as long as it's declared" mode.

[Sam Spoons]

The rhythm guitar is pretty good, but we strive for consistency and accuracy when playing rhythm so that's probably easier to fake.

FWIW my fellow mods have agreed that anything sounding like AI should be 'declined'...

Yes, I agree about the greater difficulty in diagnosing the rhythm guitar as AI because this is indeed easier to play with consistency.

As for declining suspect AI submissions on your FB group in future, I think that's a brave decision, as it will almost inevitably result in at least a few angry people, but I would hope that the majority of your members will agree that this is the best approach.

Good luck!

Martin

As a small facebook group dedicated to Gypsy Jazz and Gypsy Jazz musicians I suspect the opposite will apply, i.e. that we would have more angry members if we allowed significant amounts of AI content into the group at the cost of real musicians playing real (mostly acoustic) instruments

As for declining suspect AI submissions on your FB group in future, I think that's a brave decision, as it will almost inevitably result in at least a few angry people

of which I will probably be one .

Would you be likely to post on the group? We already decline classical guitar content, traditional gypsy folk music and several other genres (even when played by 'real' musicians) as being inappropriate for a group dedicated to our specific genre. As gypsy jazz musicians we want to hear other gypsy jazz musicians plying their trade* and give them an opportunity to promote their gigs and records. Allowing AI in is a bit like allowing a Nissan Leaf into a group dedicated to classic American V8's.

* I suppose you could liken the genre to historical re-enacting, it's maybe not trying to be quite as authentic but it is trying to keep the 'soul'** of the music intact.

** Yes, yes, I know, horrible expression but I can't think of a better explanation...

[Martin Walker]

In terms of AI use wider, I've vacillated all over the shop on this. I think I'm currently in "as long as it's declared" mode.

That makes perfect sense to me.

[Martin Walker]

As for declining suspect AI submissions on your FB group in future, I think that's a brave decision, as it will almost inevitably result in at least a few angry people

of which I will probably be one .

Would you be likely to post on the group? We already decline classical guitar content, traditional gypsy folk music and several other genres (even when played by 'real' musicians) as being inappropriate for a group dedicated to our specific genre. As gypsy jazz musicians we want to hear other gypsy jazz musicians plying their trade* and give them an opportunity to promote their gigs and records. Allowing AI in is a bit like allowing a Nissan Leaf into a group dedicated to classic American V8's.

Yes, this is the other side of the coin - when the scenario is intended for bona fide real world musicians of a specific genre, I can understand AI entries being resented.

I've already come across this on Instagram accounts devoted to incredibly poignant photos of Abandoned Places around the world, such as this one:


Here, AI submissions are considered 'fake' (AI-declared example below, but similar are regularly submitted to sites devoted to 'real' images). These generate anger from followers, who not only want AI content removed, but are also prepared to unfollow the group if not:

[Sam Spoons]

Yes, we have a couple of members who are of that mind, though not to the point of leaving the group, and another who, self admittedly, has submitted content with some AI input.

The piece I linked has been approved but having to listened again I'm now very much of the mind that it is entirely AI generated, I'm sure that anything similar that gets presented will get short shrift.

Another problem is that we are reluctant to decline content purely on the basis of quality/ability as there are amateur players in the early stages of learning the genre who like to post. I feel that enthusiasm for the music is more important than chops in this context.

[Martin Walker]

Another problem is that we are reluctant to decline content purely on the basis of quality/ability as there are amateur players in the early stages of learning the genre who like to post. I feel that enthusiasm for the music is more important than chops in this context.

Totally agree with this.

I attend an Acoustic Music night at a local pub once a month, and take along my Djembe to accompany many of the other musicians (guitar, fiddle, accordion, unaccompanied vocals etc.) who get invited to perform in turn, and who are of all skill levels from total beginner to semi-pro. Many of the less experienced have said to me that they appreciate me being there because it helps them keep better time, especially when nerves kick in.

[Sam Spoons]

The acoustic guitar session I run is very similar with a range from 'very amateur' to 'highly professional'. It's a very friendly and encouraging atmosphere with no big egos in evidence and we've had more than a few people start their performing career before going on to play regular paying gigs.

[junkmale]

Very interesting piece here from Benn Jordan on his investigations into how to make audio files un-ai-able: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMYm2d9bmEA

This is crazy and should be a feature in every render dialogue of every DAW lol.

yeah, many thanks to Drew for posting the link, very interesting work from Benn

I'd absolutely love it as an option in my DAW when exporting audio, but I think it might be a while before that's available.
I didn't follow all of the technical details, but I'm pretty sure Benn said it was going to take at least a week to poisonify an album, and that on a rig with two high-end Nvidia GPU's installed, and as well as the processing time not far off a MW of 'leccy!

[Johnsy]

Ah, yes, so you mean there's no difference?

Exactly.

To expand a little, in the same way that I don't see how any attribute of wood can impinge upon an electromagnetic signal, I similarly don't believe that the human attributes that inform the creation of great music are imparted to the music itself.

Don't get me wrong, I think human passions are vital, central to the whole enterprise, but once they're transformed into art - into something that other people can experience in the real world - then they are transformed, and the thing that they're transformed into is entirely mathematically describable.

The fact that something arises from human passion doesn't mean (unfortunately) that it isn't also a set of quantifiable parameters.

[Sam Spoons]

Ah, yes, so you mean there's no difference?

Exactly.

To expand a little, in the same way that I don't see how any attribute of wood can impinge upon an electromagnetic signal, I similarly don't believe that the human attributes that inform the creation of great music are imparted to the music itself.

Don't get me wrong, I think human passions are vital, central to the whole enterprise, but once they're transformed into art - into something that other people can experience in the real world - then they are transformed, and the thing that they're transformed into is entirely mathematically describable.

The fact that something arises from human passion doesn't mean (unfortunately) that it isn't also a set of quantifiable parameters.

I believe the woods a solid bodied guitar is built from do make a difference, even unplugged electric guitars sound different. The difference is not as great as in an acoustic but it's there. Things like the mass of the body, the hardness of the fingerboard and the stiffness of the neck affect the way the strings vibrate and these differences are picked up by the pickups.

WRT to 'soul' in music, is it there at all? I don't know. Is that the right word to describe whatever it is? I don't know that either. But I do think there is something that makes a performance special and that no two performances (even of the same piece by the same musicians) are the same and some are indefinably better than others. The only way I can think of to mathematically describe a performance of a piece of music is to record it at which point it is unchanging.

[Johnsy]

I believe the woods a solid bodied guitar is built from do make a difference, even unplugged electric guitars sound different.

Unplugged, yes - but it's not an acoustic instrument. No one in the audience hears anything but an electrical output signal.

Things like the mass of the body, the hardness of the fingerboard and the stiffness of the neck affect the way the strings vibrate

What exactly do you mean by "way"?

WRT to 'soul' in music, ... Is that the right word to describe whatever it is?

Probably not. It wasn't meant to be definitive - it was just the word that came to hand to represent "whatever it is". I don't think it's the worst term for some intangible human essence though. [edit: Except perhaps in a musical discussion, where it clashes with a genre name. Doh!)

But I do think there is something that makes a performance special and that no two performances (even of the same piece by the same musicians) are the same and some are indefinably better than others.

I straightforwardly 100% agree with every word of that, except 'indefinably'. What I'm saying is that the difference between a good and bad performance of the same piece by the same musician is a physical, analytical difference. It may be that x performed it badly or well for whatever personal, human reason, but the appreciable manifestation of that, having been transformed into a physical form, is now analysable (and thus replicable).

We don't hear x's sadness or happiness, we hear what the music sounds like when x is sad or happy - and AI can 'hear' that too. All it needs then is to have the right label on it.

The only way I can think of to mathematically describe a performance of a piece of music is to record it

AI seems fine with that.

[Sam Spoons]

I believe the woods a solid bodied guitar is built from do make a difference, even unplugged electric guitars sound different.

Unplugged, yes - but it's not an acoustic instrument. No one in the audience hears anything but an electrical output signal.

Things like the mass of the body, the hardness of the fingerboard and the stiffness of the neck affect the way the strings vibrate

What exactly do you mean by "way"?

By the 'way' the strings vibrate I mean the overtones/harmonics that are produced resulting a particular timbre which will be reproduced by the pickups.

The pickups themselves will colour that sound and IME have a greater impact than other factors (wood, construction etc.) but those other factors still have an effect.

WRT to 'soul' in music, ... Is that the right word to describe whatever it is?

Probably not. It wasn't meant to be definitive - it was just the word that came to hand to represent "whatever it is". I don't think it's the worst term for some intangible human essence though. [edit: Except perhaps in a musical discussion, where it clashes with a genre name. Doh!)

But I do think there is something that makes a performance special and that no two performances (even of the same piece by the same musicians) are the same and some are indefinably better than others.

I straightforwardly 100% agree with every word of that, except 'indefinably'. What I'm saying is that the difference between a good and bad performance of the same piece by the same musician is a physical, analytical difference. It may be that x performed it badly or well for whatever personal, human reason, but the appreciable manifestation of that, having been transformed into a physical form, is now analysable (and thus replicable).

We don't hear x's sadness or happiness, we hear what the music sounds like when x is sad or happy - and AI can 'hear' that too. All it needs then is to have the right label on it.

The only way I can think of to mathematically describe a performance of a piece of music is to record it

AI seems fine with that.

Except AI can't (or at least I've never heard it) yet produce anything that sounds like a 'real' performance as it can only 'copy' recordings. Maybe it would do better if the AI bots only scraped live performance recordings?

[BigRedX]

I believe the woods a solid bodied guitar is built from do make a difference, even unplugged electric guitars sound different. The difference is not as great as in an acoustic but it's there. Things like the mass of the body, the hardness of the fingerboard and the stiffness of the neck affect the way the strings vibrate and these differences are picked up by the pickups.

I'd agree with this. The problem I have with "Tonewood" when used to describe the sound characteristics of a solid electric instrument is that people continue to deal in absolutes in that one species of tree produces wood that is fundamentally different to that from a different species of tree, and that all guitars made from wood the same species share similar sonic characteristics, when that can be easily disproved by simply trying out ever Fender Telecaster in your local music shop and discovering that they all sound different.

It also ignores the fact that "Ash" (for example) can be used to describe the wood produced from over 40 different species of tree which come from different geographic and climatic conditions and that the fabled "Swamp Ash" isn't a distinct species but simply an "Ash" tree that has been grown in "swampy" conditions.

[ken long]

Very interesting piece here from Benn Jordan on his investigations into how to make audio files un-ai-able: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMYm2d9bmEA

This is crazy and should be a feature in every render dialogue of every DAW lol.

yeah, many thanks to Drew for posting the link, very interesting work from Benn

I'd absolutely love it as an option in my DAW when exporting audio, but I think it might be a while before that's available.
I didn't follow all of the technical details, but I'm pretty sure Benn said it was going to take at least a week to poisonify an album, and that on a rig with two high-end Nvidia GPU's installed, and as well as the processing time not far off a MW of 'leccy!

Bring on quantum computing!