Mainstage/Mac mini crashing same time every week!

[Reuben Anstey]

Hi there,

Got a fairly new MainStage system install.

Any ideas as to why it would fail at exactly 10.31 every Sunday morning for the past 4 Sundays?

Musicians have always booted up, used the system successfully for an hour from 9.00am., and then at precisely 10.31, the system becomes erratic, stops working arbitrarily, crashes multiple times, and upon repeatedly attempting to re start MainStage just complains of System Failure (audio engine overload). Also, several other applications (Safari, Apple Music, and Focusrite Control) all randomly start themselves. The only thing that resolves it is to let the system have it's meltdown, and within an hour, it can be used reliably again.

Not sure if relevant, but the system has been set to auto boot up into MainStage and switch on via the Mini's 'restart automatically in event of power failure', so that the system can be externally switched on with other equipment (midi controllers etc) and without the need for a screen. All the usual things for efficient successful live performance are set ie Auto Updates off, Wifi/Bluetooth and other apps disabled.

It should be noted the system is used Monday - Saturday for hours on end with no glitches whatsoever!

So is there anything I've missed that would cause the system to behave this way?

Its a 2024 Mac mini m3 running MainStage 3.6.6 (I think).

Grateful for your thoughts.

Thanks, Reuben

[Sam Spoons]

What do you have in the building that switches on or off at 10:31 am?
Is there a switching of power from a main circuit to a backup (generator maybe) or a switching back to the main supply at 10:31 (this happens at my caravan at 9:58 p.m. on busy weekends)?
Is the computer programmed to start a certain process or application at 10:31 (maybe a system backup)?

[Reuben Anstey]

Thanks for your very quick reply.

Apparently the building in terms of mains power is running as it would do any other time.

I believe the system back ups are all disabled, but will check this. Would it still try to attempt this even though the Mac is disabled from wifi?

[Sam Spoons]

I don't know TBH, I was just trying to suggest a few possible causes that spring to mind. If it definitely happens at exactly the same time every Sunday there must be a specific event that triggers it. It might help to narrow it down if there was a time when it becomes usable again, I realise that is harder to pinpoint but it may be worth trying to identify.

For starters I'd be looking at anything mains borne and anything in the Mac's system, the Activity Monitor app would be a good place to start looking at the latter.

[Reuben Anstey]

Thank you very much for this Sam…appreciative of any thoughts.

It does seem to be activity related, and yes it’s exactly the same time every time… the activity monitor seems to be the way to go.

I was just asking the question initially because it’s a Mac used for one thing only…no other apps/programs/media usage installed or downloaded other than MainStage itself, a Roland um1 usb to midi driver, and the Focusrite control for audio output, so I thought I may have missed something obvious.

Thanks again, Reuben

[Sam Spoons]

Do you have access to another Mac which you could install Mainstage on use to run the system for one Sunday to see if the problem reoccurs, maybe with the Mini running at a different location to prove whether the issue is with the computer or being triggered by something in the building mains supply or in the rest of the system?

My thoughts are still that the OS is performing some housekeeping task at 10:31 on a Sunday morning which is giving Mainstage indigestion...

[s_e_a_n]

I would also consider the possibility that it crashes AFTER 1.5 hours of usage if you start every sunday at the same time. Could also happen due to memory leaks in the code which are only triggered after heavy usage, and this has coincidentally happened at the same time as you have gone through identical performances each sunday.

[Reuben Anstey]

Thank you for your replies.

The difficulty is the installation is for a customer in Bristol….I’m in Norwich!

The customer practices for hours on end mon to Sat with no glitch, sometimes over 3 hours at a time! Pretty extreme, but makes it quite a massive coincidence if exactly at 10.31 Sunday it miss behaves!

[Reuben Anstey]

Do you have access to another Mac which you could install Mainstage on use to run the system for one Sunday to see if the problem reoccurs, maybe with the Mini running at a different location to prove whether the issue is with the computer or being triggered by something in the building mains supply or in the rest of the system?

My thoughts are still that the OS is performing some housekeeping task at 10:31 on a Sunday morning which is giving Mainstage indigestion...

I think you may well be right regarding this, on both counts!

[Reuben Anstey]

Interestingly, and unfortunately I just received the following advice:

"Joel s girlfriend who is staying with us is a leading software engineer. I described the problems you were having. She said that the apple computers have to be connected to the internet. If it cannot update the maximum it leaves the process to try again is 1 week. If fails to update find the internet it crashes and then goes through a long process of trying to find an update another way. Macs can no longer built to run longterm in isolation from the internet. I asked if we could change the clock. She said no … she said you could set the update times to be longer but the program is built to need updates, you cannot anymore delete this function. “

I have several other installations with no issues…at least identical to here.

If “macs can no longer built to run long term in isolation”, then this totally contradicts the advice I got from the Apple Store in the first place, which was to confirm to me that Mac minis can be used in isolation as part of a permanent installation.

But you can still disable updates etc. Is this very new advice?

[Sam Spoons]

I have automatic updates off on both my Macs (a 2020 M1 MBP running Ventura and a 2019 intel Mac Pro running Sonoma) But I don't know about Sequoia.

[OneWorld]

Maybe its Time has come?

Have you asked anyone on TikTok what the problem could be?

[Sam Spoons]

This is probably worth a read WRT the lack of an internet connection. https://eclecticlight.co/2023/03/14/usi ... onnection/ It doesn't sound like there's anything clever going on relating to updates (at least as far as Ventura) but does Mainstage or any of the randomly starting apps need to validate their licences at 10:31 am on Sunday?

Another thought, you may not be able to change the scheduled time for whatever is happening but can you manually change the time zone the computer thinks it's in?

[Reuben Anstey]

Thank you for these thoughts again.

So the system crashed again last night, and so (possibly) defeating the theory that hidden regular updates are causing the Sunday morning crash. The activity monitor showed little in terms of huge cpu usage of anything performing any processes, so this is really strange.

I’m now wondering about more extreme solutions, such as running two macs with one as backup. Obv there would have to be a pretty slick way of switching to the other if when one crashes. I’ll start another thread I think and ask about this.

[Sam Spoons]

It seems too much of coincidence that it crashed at exactly the same time the last three Sundays for that to be ignored. My next step would be to beg, borrow or hire another Mac to run the show for a week or two and take the original M4 home or to the office, (either yours or somebody else's, anywhere off site) and see if you can prompt a similar crash. A refurbed M1 Mac Mini can be had from Hoxton Macs for a under £300, should run Mainstage sufficiently well to act as a backup and could be resold afterwards for little loss if no longer required.

https://www.hoxtonmacs.co.uk/collection ... lability=1

[Reuben Anstey]

So,

It appears the culprit is the hearing loop system within the building. Apparently it’s related to the way it’s routed in relation to the mains. So an external influence nothing to do with the Mac itself.

Thank you for all your efforts in trying to diagnose this. I’d never have thought that kind of thing would affect it!

[Martin Walker]

Bravo to you for finally tracking down the source of the problem Reuben!

How did you make the connection, and why did it always happen at 10.31 every Sunday morning?

[Random Guitarist]

Going into Sherlock mode I'm guessing it's in a church and the loop gets turned on (or up) in readiness for a congregation arriving.

[Sam Spoons]

Good news, well done for sorting it.

[_jesskimo]

This is an interesting find. I’m looking at using a Mac Mac at church for MainStage. I’m not sure if we have a hearing loop system or not, and we are also constructing a new building this year and not sure if it will have a hearing loop system or not.

Is this something that would affect MacBooks as well? Or is it something specific to the Mac Mini?

[Hugh Robjohns]

It appears the culprit is the hearing loop system within the building. Apparently it’s related to the way it’s routed in relation to the mains. So an external influence nothing to do with the Mac itself.

I'm amazed, and rather disappointed! So much for EMC certification...

I'd recommend now breaking down the system to see which element is being affected by the hearing loop switch on. Is it the computer itself, the interface, things connected to the interface?

It may well be that providing better screening or grounding (or even removing grounding if everything is double-insulated) would eradicate the problem.

[_jesskimo]

It appears the culprit is the hearing loop system within the building. Apparently it’s related to the way it’s routed in relation to the mains. So an external influence nothing to do with the Mac itself.

I'm amazed, and rather disappointed! So much for EMC certification...

I'd recommend now breaking down the system to see which element is being affected by the hearing loop switch on. Is it the computer itself, the interface, things connected to the interface?

It may well be that providing better screening or grounding (or even removing grounding if everything is double-insulated) would eradicate the problem.

Yes! I’m very curious to this as well!

[s_e_a_n]

It appears the culprit is the hearing loop system within the building. Apparently it’s related to the way it’s routed in relation to the mains. So an external influence nothing to do with the Mac itself.

I'm amazed, and rather disappointed! So much for EMC certification...

I'd recommend now breaking down the system to see which element is being affected by the hearing loop switch on. Is it the computer itself, the interface, things connected to the interface?

It may well be that providing better screening or grounding (or even removing grounding if everything is double-insulated) would eradicate the problem.

I'd imagine their shielding is all a bit weak, it's built down to a price. There are also many reports of wifi being compromised when one of those "under-mini" docks are being used. As long as this is understood it's still a great computer for the price.

[ajay_m]

I find this rather astonishing. The loop is just an audio frequency inductor in essence and the radiated field strength ought to be fairly modest. How that would then get into the computer through the mains and then the switch mode power supply seems improbable. However it might conceivably interfere with a usb connected device although with shielded cable it's again hard to see quite how this is possible.

[Wonks]

They are powerful enough to break into well shielded guitars fitted with humbuckers. Not as benign as you may think if you get close to the loop.