Recording Grand Piano

[Jen12345678]

I'm recording some piano at home. The room is far from good so I kind of close mic'ed a couple of Soyuz fet 013's over the hammers. About 8-12" above the strings. The bottom end is pretty ugly I think? I've put a rug underneath in case it's helpful. Improvement thoughts appreciated! Mics only arrived yesterday so it's pretty new to me.

I've listened to lots of piano recordings and 4 mics seems to sound much better than 2 (obvs. if done right and I know it's harder with phasing etc). I'd love any thoughts/advice on a good 2nd set of mics to try (for a less than good room) and any other suggestions? (Not moving home). It's better for me to have phantom powered mics due to a hum I sometimes get on self powered mics. Was wondering about boundary mics?

I've attached a little improv-y thing playing a few notes around the piano. Thoughts very much appreciated.

Piano link: https://voca.ro/13yfIVVGLaTC

[Tomás Mulcahy]

When the room is not good it is worth trying PZMs. We discussed them in this thread about uprights. I've had success in various positions on grand piano, under the lid open and closed and even on the floor underneath, no more than 10cm or so apart for a stereo pair for a good solid image YMMV it requires testing.

Four mics only really works when it is a decent room and you want an audience perspective. It might not be appropriate for all genres.

[Jen12345678]

Thanks very much, so Crown PZMs? Is it these?
Crown PCC160 PZM Plate Microphone £15!? Thanks

[James Perrett]

I think only Crown are allowed to call them PZMs so other manufacturers call them boundary microphones. I'm no piano recording expert, but I've had some success with a pair of old Realistic PZMs.

[Sam Spoons]

AKG now make the PCC160 and describe it as not a PZM but a Phase Coherent Cardioid®. Apparently the diaphragm of a PZM is, as patented by Crown, is parallel to the boundary plate and gives a hemispherical polar pattern, the PPC has a 'half cardioid' pickup pattern 'cos the diaphragm is perpendicular to the boundary plane. I think an omni mic laid flat on the floor would have a similar hemispherical polar plot but, at least as far as Crown are concerned, would not be a PZM.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I think only Crown are allowed to call them PZMs so other manufacturers call them boundary microphones. I'm no piano recording expert, but I've had some success with a pair of old Realistic PZMs.

My old Realistic PZM are called PZM, it's written on them And yes, they are quite fine on piano. I am sure any other brand would be fine too.

[James Perrett]

My old Realistic PZM are called PZM, it's written on them .

That's because they licensed the trademark from Crown (it says so in their catalogues from the time) and also reputedly had Crown build the mics for them.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

[Arpangel]

Sounds alright to me, if a little bass light, that piano needs a good tune though, that should make it sound 100% better.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

Piano link: https://voca.ro/13yfIVVGLaTC

Tasty improv! Nice feel to the rhythm especially.

The mics are too far apart. too much anti-phase is taking away the bass and the warmth, and the stereo image is distorted. I checked it on Ozone Imager and it shows mostly below zero on the meter.

Stick to standard stereo arrays such as NOS DIN and ORTF. Or XY, if you must Gerzon array is great too.

[Jen12345678]

Wow ok. Gosh I don't know what I'm doing ekk. I just got another pair of mics (Rode NT5) I know it's not the best idea, I just wanted to for fun. Anyway the new NT5 clicks all the time so I think I need to send it back (tried it on different interface inputs and different leads but it always does it). Anyway this is what it sounds like without any effects or anything. I need to get the piano tuned and there's some sort of dodgy cymbal-y noise (it doesn't really matter for what I'm doing prob. but).

https://voca.ro/1hwyOkZi5sgi

[Jen12345678]

Piano link: https://voca.ro/13yfIVVGLaTC

Tasty improv! Nice feel to the rhythm especially.

The mics are too far apart. too much anti-phase is taking away the bass and the warmth, and the stereo image is distorted. I checked it on Ozone Imager and it shows mostly below zero on the meter.

Stick to standard stereo arrays such as NOS DIN and ORTF. Or XY, if you must Gerzon array is great too.

That's very lovely of you. Thanks so much. It's kind of a song but I didn't really want to say that 'cause I'm not playing it properly or anything.... I like writing little things in my shed.

I'll look this stuff up thanks so much: Ozone Imager and it shows mostly below zero on the meter. Stick to standard stereo arrays such as NOS DIN and ORTF. Or XY, if you must Gerzon array is great too.

[Jen12345678]

Sounds alright to me, if a little bass light, that piano needs a good tune though, that should make it sound 100% better.

Yes I need to tune my poor piano! Thanks I'll get on it!

[Hugh Robjohns]

...Ozone Imager and it shows mostly below zero on the meter.

If you're talking about the bar graph meter scaled from -1 to +1 with 0 at the centre, that's a Phase Meter.

It indicates the degree of coherence (or "sameness") between the two channels of a stereo system.

If both channels carry the exact same signal — dual mono or a centre-panned mono source) — the meter will show +1 as there is full coherence between the two channels. If the two channels are summed to mono everything is retained!

Conversely, if the two channels carry the same signals but one channel has inverted polarity, there is total incoherence — the two channels are working in opposite directions — and the meter will show -1. If the two channels are summed to mono, they will cancel each other completely, resulting in silence.

Signals registering around 0 at the centre of the display have just enough phase differences or incoherence to form a full width stereo image, and pretty much everything will be retained if summed to mono.

So, the idea is to keep the meter close to 0, and erring on the positive side, rather than the negative.

The further the meter falls into the negative half, the larger the hole in the middle of the stereo image, and the less palatable the mono sum.

If recording with spaced mics, negative readings suggest the mics are too far apart and they are capturing very dissimilar signals (lacking coherence). Try moving them closer and/or (if using directional mics) try angling them inwards.

[Jen12345678]

...Ozone Imager and it shows mostly below zero on the meter.

If you're talking about the bar graph meter scaled from -1 to +1 with 0 at the centre, that's a Phase Meter.

It indicates the degree of coherence (or "sameness") between the two channels of a stereo system.

If both channels carry the exact same signal — dual mono or a centre-panned mono source) — the meter will show +1 as there is full coherence between the two channels. If the two channels are summed to mono everything is retained!

Conversely, if the two channels carry the same signals but one channel has inverted polarity, there is total incoherence — the two channels are working in opposite directions — and the meter will show -1. If the two channels are summed to mono, they will cancel each other completely, resulting in silence.

Signals registering around 0 at the centre of the display have just enough phase differences or incoherence to form a full width stereo image, and pretty much everything will be retained if summed to mono.

So, the idea is to keep the meter close to 0, and erring on the positive side, rather than the negative.

The further the meter falls into the negative half, the larger the hole in the middle of the stereo image, and the less palatable the mono sum.

If recording with spaced mics, negative readings suggest the mics are too far apart and they are capturing very dissimilar signals (lacking coherence). Try moving them closer and/or (if using directional mics) try angling them inwards.

Thanks so much for telling me! Tomás wrote me, I don't actually know what Ozone is but it sounds like I should. It's a whole new world thank you!

[Jen12345678]

Interesting, I hit the 'master' button on logic and 'width'. Does something I like. I know it might be quite unbearable to people who know what they're doing. Now if I can just stop that bloomin' vibrating cymbal noise! I think it's in the piano somehow...

https://voca.ro/1dh4De3pswrQ

Thanks for everyone's help to date, it's making my little fun project more enjoyable and I'm uber appreciative of all your brilliant minds. Hoping to try everyone's suggestions properly next week. Thanks all.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Thanks so much for telling me! Tomás wrote me

Apologies! I misunderstood who was quoting whom.

don't actually know what Ozone is but it sounds like I should.

It's a software mastering package that happens to have some useful stereo imaging meters and tools.

[James Perrett]

Now if I can just stop that bloomin' vibrating cymbal noise! I think it's in the piano somehow...

That's a common problem with piano recording - you don't notice all the odd noises when you are playing but they become more obvious when listening to the playback. Maybe moving the microphones further away might help but then the sound of the room will become more prominent.

What are you listening on? I don't hear too many problems on Sennheiser HD600 headphones but some other headphones would accentuate noises more than the Sennheisers.

[wavetable]

I'm no expert either but I've spent quite a lot of time trying to do the same thing. If I might offer one idea - regardless of whether you like what Logic mastering is doing you're probably better switching it off. On solo piano it seems to act like a randomise function and I doubt that it's going to get you a good basic sound. If you can sort out room acoustics and mic positions before you let dodgy AI tools loose on it you'll maybe end up with a much better understanding of recording your piano and be much more in control. That mastering tool is likely to just muddy the water for you.

I took the day off work today and spent the whole day just recording and listening. The single most effective change I ended up making was in the position of an acoustic screen.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

@jen12345678 here are some useful links for you.
Free Ozone Imager plugin
Stereo Recording Techniques and setups

[Arpangel]

That "cymbal" sound is just the high strings sustaining, giving a sheen to the music, you’re using a lot of sustain and playing quite heavily, which will accentuate it, either that or your mic's are too close.
Nice piece by the way.

[Jen12345678]

Now if I can just stop that bloomin' vibrating cymbal noise! I think it's in the piano somehow...

That's a common problem with piano recording - you don't notice all the odd noises when you are playing but they become more obvious when listening to the playback. Maybe moving the microphones further away might help but then the sound of the room will become more prominent.

What are you listening on? I don't hear too many problems on Sennheiser HD600 headphones but some other headphones would accentuate noises more than the Sennheisers.

Ah good point, I'll try some more headphones! Thank you!

[Jen12345678]

I'm no expert either but I've spent quite a lot of time trying to do the same thing. If I might offer one idea - regardless of whether you like what Logic mastering is doing you're probably better switching it off. On solo piano it seems to act like a randomise function and I doubt that it's going to get you a good basic sound. If you can sort out room acoustics and mic positions before you let dodgy AI tools loose on it you'll maybe end up with a much better understanding of recording your piano and be much more in control. That mastering tool is likely to just muddy the water for you.

I took the day off work today and spent the whole day just recording and listening. The single most effective change I ended up making was in the position of an acoustic screen.

Yes I totally agree of course but it's good to have a reminder. Lots more to do implementing everyone's suggestions. Thanks for replying.

[Jen12345678]

That "cymbal" sound is just the high strings sustaining, giving a sheen to the music, you’re using a lot of sustain and playing quite heavily, which will accentuate it, either that or your mic's are too close.
Nice piece by the way.

Ah thanks so much that's really nice of you! Also great to know about that noise, now I play the piano in the room I am more aware of that sound being there so maybe it's just part of my piano sound. I am quite dynamic with my playing lol. Kind of extreme. The mics are quite close though, need to play with that a bit too. Huge thanks.

[Arpangel]

[The mics are quite close though, need to play with that a bit too. Huge thanks.

I think you’re right, your playing style IMO, may need a less intimate mic placement.