Mic recommendation for recording Himalayan and Crystal bowls.

[Zukan]

I have a student who has a variety of crystal and Himalayan bowls. She currently has a Rode NT2A for recording but wants a better combo setup to capture the detail and low end (some of her Himalayan bowls are C1, F1 etc..) of the bowls.

I think a combo of omni plus cardioid would be great but I am no expert in bowl recording.

Budget is a total of £1500 inc stand/s, but she can stretch to £2000 if a Jedi combo is suggested?

Thanks folks.

[Wonks]

This is the sort of thing I know Martin Walker has done.

[Wonks]

But you are down in bass frequencies where the room and positioning is as important as the mic.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Obviously, the recording environment will affect the outcome significantly, but my thinking would be for a good quality omni (better still, a stereo pair of omnis) with near-field equalisation (ie, no HF peaking boost).

Omnis have the bass extension, of course, but more importantly they don't have the LF phase distortion that cardioids typically introduce — something I feel would be quite noticeable in the bowl sound character.

Ideally, I'd choose a Schoeps cmc6/mk2 stereo set which is around £2.5k (inc VAT). A tad over budget... but so worth it! And a lifetime keeper of a mic set!

Note, the MK2 capsule is equalised to be flat for close sources. There are other mk2 capsules with suffixes such as the Mk2S and MK2H which are equalised to be flat at greater distances and will sound overly bright if used close in. So avoid those!

Alternatively, if this is for a single project you could hire in a couple of DPA4006s (and use the near field grids). Or the Schoeps or Sennheiser MKH20s...

Or you might find a couple of mkh20s on the used market within the budget. I'm a big fan of these mics, but not everyone is...

Moving down the price range, there's the Neumann KM183 or the Rode NT55 with the O45 omni capsule included (or as an accessory for the NT5).

All three are available as stereo sets, and all have capsules equalised for the diffuse field, so will sound bright if used close in... but if they are mounted to point straight up, so the bowl sound arrives at 90 degrees, they will give a flat response without needing additional EQ. The HF boost applies only to direct on-axis sources due to the physics!

And finally, the Line Audio OM1 performs well above its price point.

[Zukan]

Thanks for the detailed response Hugh.

We looked at Soyus 013 which a bowl recording engineer she follows recommended it. We also eyed the MKH8020, which looked good on spec but I have no experience with them. AT4022 looked ok and the NT55s seemed to be useful, the AT5045 but I wasn't convinced as she is elderly and struggles with tech so a side address mic might throw her. The KM183 looked good, but I do like the MKH20s but not sure about used as I'd rather she has a foolproof setup on the get go..

If I had to choose, I'd probably opt for the Schoeps as I think with the quality of the bowls she owns a matched pair would be perfect.

Lots to think about.

Thanks a heap.

[Zukan]

But you are down in bass frequencies where the room and positioning is as important as the mic.

Yep, as always, the room is critical.

Thanks buddy.

[Bob Bickerton]

I was thinking the MKH 8020 and Pinknoise appear to have them on special just now. I went to compare prices with the MKH 20 and my search revealed the MKH 20 is either unavailable or discontinued……… is this so?

I’ve used 8040 on singing bowls with success, but for those lower pitched bowls the 8020 makes sense.

Bob

[Hugh Robjohns]

Yes, the MKH20 (omni), 40 (cardioid), 60 and 70 (short and long shotguns) are all no more, although retailers may still have old stock, for a short while. The 8000 series has officially replaced them all.

The MKH30 (fig-8) and 50 (hypercardioid) are currently still in production, I believe, but probably not for much longer.

[Aled Hughes]

The budget of course allows for much posher mics, but the Line Audio OM1 mentioned by Hugh are really rather good, and also equalised to be flat in the near field.

You're welcome to borrow my pair to see how suitable they are if you're willing to cover the postage.

There's also the Gefell M320 (around £2k a pair inc. vat at Funky Junk)

[Zukan]

Thanks a heap folks. MY student decided to try the OM1s. I'll keep you posted.

[Arpangel]

My preference for this would be a pair of DPA 4006’s, beautiful rich sounding mic’s with a great low end, but, way over budget, second choice would be a pair of Sennheiser MKH20’s, just about doable within this budget.

[Drew Stephenson]

second choice would be a pair of Sennheiser MKH20’s, just about doable within this budget.

You'd be looking second-hand though as they're no longer made.

[Hugh Robjohns]

They hold their prices very well in the second-hand market too. Most used good condition MKH20s with accessories and box are going for around £750-800...

The replacement is the MKH8020 which costs around £1,900 new.

[ManFromGlass]

Unless the crystal bowls are really really large there won’t be a lot of bottom end..
Just re-read the original post - some must be large to hit those notes.
A bit of jealousy here!

[James Perrett]

Thanks a heap folks. MY student decided to try the OM1s. I'll keep you posted.

I've not tried the OM1s but I've been comparing my CM3s to some much more expensive mics recently and they certainly hold their own. I quite like the sound of the Shure KSM141 but I have a feeling that it may be slightly flattering rather than accurate and that the CM3 could be a safer choice.

[Zukan]

Unless the crystal bowls are really really large there won’t be a lot of bottom end..
Just re-read the original post - some must be large to hit those notes.
A bit of jealousy here!

It's mainly for the first octave of the Himalayan bowls she has.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Unless the crystal bowls are really really large there won’t be a lot of bottom end...

My recommendation of omnis in this case wasn't about capturing an extended bottom end. It was about preserving the phase relationships across the fundamental and harmonics.

The phase-shifting shenanigans employed to make cardioid mics cardioid really mess that up, and the effect is very audible on harmonically complex instruments.

Put up a cardioid and an omni next to each other over a violin, for example, and tell me which sounds more natural and closer to the sound in the room!

Obviously, some situations require cardioid (or other directional patterns) in order to exclude some unwanted acoustic elements (room reverb, spill from other instruments, or whatever), and the inherent tonal compromise just has to be accepted....

But where an omni can be used, especially with a harmonically complex and exposed source, the more natural tonality usually makes it well worthwhile.

[S.Crow]

And finally, the Line Audio OM1 performs well above its price point.

I was pleasantly surprised to see just how low that price point of £135 inc VAT is, assuming that I have the right model:
https://pinknoise-systems.co.uk/products/la-omni1
I will keep them in mind for a future project.
Thanks.

[Hugh Robjohns]

It's very good value for money and sounds sweet... but bear in mind that it is a miniature capsule electret mic so self-noise is relatively high at 18dBA (compared to 10dBA for the Sennheiser MKH8020).

The mic is designed and equalised for near-field (close mic) applications and so that noise floor won't be an issue at all in most applications. However, it might become an issue in some applications, especially if HF boost EQ is required for diffuse-field miking as in orchestral or choir pickups, for example (although a lot of people are using them for that too!).

[Arpangel]

Given the OP's mention of a budget, a couple of MKH20’s should be well within it, and far preferable to the Line Audio's, which always sound "artificial" IMO, good value yes, but too much of compromise, she can do better than that.

[S.Crow]

It's very good value for money and sounds sweet... but bear in mind that it is a miniature capsule electret mic so self-noise is relatively high at 18dBA (compared to 10dBA for the Sennheiser MKH8020).

The mic is designed and equalised for near-field (close mic) applications and so that noise floor won't be an issue at all in most applications. However, it might become an issue in some applications, especially if HF boost EQ is required for diffuse-field miking as in orchestral or choir pickups, for example (although a lot of people are using them for that too!).

Thanks for that as I know very little about mics.
They might be fine for some applications I have in mind, but possibly not for the main application.
More research required.