Is my Strat doomed or does yours also...?

[TPv2]

Dear all,

After some decades playing Ibanez guitars I have gone back to a Fender Stratocaster (my roots, sort of). It has become my fave instrument, I love the sound, the feel and everything and I barely touch my other guitars anymore.

But it has a problem that makes me question whether I should keep it.

From new, the saddle under the high E string was collapsing. It. went back to the store and they replaced the saddle and screws. It was ok for a couple of months but now the saddle has collapsed twice in two days.

Collapsing means, the saddle drops down in height, the last two times it was especially on one side. It happens pretty randomly, not when I go trem bar crazy or bend excessively. One of these last times I was playing another string while it happened.

It's not a cheap strat, it's an Artist Series Jeff Beck (NOT custom shop). Priced above 2K, a price level where decent quality is expected in my opinion.

I would like to hear from Strat owners please, have you had this issue? Can it be fixed for good? (Not with glue or other compromise solutions/dirty tricks). Should I consider part exchanging for a custom shop? The store guys have tried to steer me onto a Suhr a couple of times. I did try a Suhr and yes it's a great guitar but didn't feel as comfortable to me as the Strat.

Things to note:

- It only ever happens on the high E string saddle.
- I have very light strings (E is 0.009).
- The guitar has been set up professionally at the same time the saddle was replaced, so that the trem is floating (Jeff Beck style, and because I come from playing Ibanez guitars with Floyd Rose style bridges). It uses three springs.
- The end of the saddle is super close to the post on that side, possibly touching it it's hard to see. But since the collapsing does not happen when using the term in particular, I'm not sure it matters.

I'm at a loss as to what to do about this guitar. Of course there is disappointment that Fender releases instruments with this kind of problem on such an old design, but I also absolutely love the instrument overall. So I would appreciate any input/opinion/advice.

Perhaps you all Strat players have this issue at times?

[ef37a]

When you say the saddle has "collapsed" I take it you mean the height adjusting threads have stripped?

I don't know about other guitars but that has not happened to my son's Mex Strat which must be well over 20 years old.

The hex grub screws look like blued high tensile steel so I doubt they are the problem (or are yours 'silver'?) The saddle body I guess is brass and thus that could be your problem? They might have used an inferior alloy at some point.

The hex grubs look about M3 but are I guess an American imperial thread. I wonder if the saddle could be drilled out and the next metric thread cut in it? Using a taper tap, don't take too much metal off and keep the thread 'tight'.

But then there must be some high quality after-market bridge assemblies available? I am sure Andy or Wonks will be finished their Wheatybangs soon and will put us all aright?

Oh! There are farsands of them. You need Andy&Co to steer you.

Dave.

[BigRedX]

Set the saddle to the correct height for you and put some thread lock on the screws. If you use the non-permanent version you can "break the seal" should you need to re-adjust the action if you change your brand or gauge of strings. I had a similar problem with the BBOT bridge on an Eastwood Hooky bass and this solved it completely for me.

[ajay_m]

I know nothing of guitars but I would suspect if the saddle assembly is an exact replacement that indeed the design or manufacturing processes have led to a marginal issue with the retaining threads, a common issue in many different products. One non-intrusive way of resolving this is to wrap a couple of layers of PTFE plumbers thread seal tape around the screw thread, which increases the contact area between the two surfaces. I have never tried this on a guitar saddle but it has certainly worked in some other scenarios, and is of course completely non destructive.
However the expert here is Wonks. He will, I'm sure, have some sage advice for us all soon.
And Hugh, why not commission an article from him on guitar maintenance? It'd be pretty popular I'd say.

[Wonks]

From what I can see, and from the Fender description, the guitar is fitted with a 2-point trem and stainless steel 'block' saddles. If you've fitted any other type of saddle e.g. standard pressed steel ones, then let us know.

There shouldn't be anything inherently wrong with this arrangement, so it may be down to something specific with your particular setup.

How high off the bridge plate do your saddles sit?

I trust the intonation has been checked and set up correctly, and that's the reason the high E saddle is that far forward.

Where do the grub screws sit in relation to the top of the saddles. All poking out? Some flat with the top and others slightly high or very slightly below the top? Or all sitting well below the top in the screw channel?

Are your saddles arranged so they all sit parallel to the bridge plate, or are the tops angled so they roughly form a radius shape that matches the fretboard radius?

And are you happy with the way the guitar is set up or do you feel the action is too high or too low?

The saddles should sit parallel to the bridge plate. You can use a radius gauge resting on the strings if you want to set the middle saddle heights once you're happy with the two outer E strings, but the saddles themselves need to be flat relative to the bridge plate for the two height adjustment screws to sit properly. If angled, the pressure is all on the screw with the smallest amount sticking out, which can cause buzzing from the other screw. Doesn't sound like your issue but I'll ask anyway.

If the screws are sitting well down in the saddle holes, then the saddles should be pretty high off the bridge plate. This indicates (to me anyway) that the neck angle is too great and there may be a factory fitted (or by others if you didn't buy it new) shim in the neck pocket. This either needs to be reduced in height, or else removed, so that the screws sit level with or just below the surface of the saddles. Whilst they can sit slightly proud, the more they stick out, the more uncomfortable it is to rest your hand on the bridge.

You can get replacement saddle height screws from the likes of Allparts (being a US model you'll need imperial threads), which come in three lengths. So choose a length appropriately longer (or shorter) than the existing screw length.

If the screws are just steel and the saddles stainless steel, then with the addition of moisture (e.g. sweat) the steel can corrode through galvanic action, so the edges of the threads might rust away. If the screws are well down in the saddle holes, then all the pressure is on the edges of a few thread turns, making it more likely they give way.

But if so, it is strange that no other saddles are affected.

So we do need a lot more detail to help us.

If it is simply that the block screw threads are a bit oversized, then the previously suggested PTFE tape or Loctite are good solutions to try.

[S2]

Tbh, if you bought this new from a store for £2k, and it's still under warranty then I wouldn't be playing around with CA or PTFE, I'd take it back (again) and get them to sort it or give a refund and get something else.

[ef37a]

Ah, Stainless Steel. Did not think if that Wonks but then there are many grades of SS none of which are as hard as HT steel I am betting? "Thread erosion" seems a good call?
I have a sample box of sheds of hex grub screws but they are all metric.

Dave.

[zenguitar]

I trained over 30 years ago. I've worked on countless Strats in that time. I have NEVER seen a problem like this.

Take it back and get the guitar replaced or a full refund.

Of course, there is a part of me that is curious to discover what is happening and why.

Andy

[Sam Spoons]

I have two Strats, one a standard with bent steel saddles and the other with block saddles (most likely cheap Chinese made as it's a budget 'bitsa' I built) neither have this issue and while I haven't seen as many Strats as Wonks and Zen I've played a fair few and never seen one that does.

[Wonks]

But failing two weeks after replacement seems rather excessive corrosion.

There may well be a manufacturing error that fails to be addressed.

There are plenty of replacement block saddles available if you want to try. I bought a Strat that came with Graphtech String Saver saddles and they were absolutely rock solid. You can get them in all black, or a more expensive version that has the graphite insert in a chromed block. Amazon and eBay are full of replacement saddles of that style. Just measure the string spacing and make sure any replacements have that exact spacing. (There are three common spacings and US made Strats tend to have the widest).

Put the existing saddles aside to refit if you ever sell the guitar.

You won't get better hardware with a Custom Shop guitar. Fender don't make special hardware just for Custom Shop guitars (pickups, yes, but other parts, no).

[Sam Spoons]

Just 'cos nobody has actually said it, "no your Strat is not doomed (but it's bridge may be...)

[Wonks]

Just realised that it looks like the saddles are ones with the offset intonation screw (non-central). Harder to find replacements for and definitely don't try to fit ones with a central intonation screw as the strings will end up offset by a couple of mm.

[TPv2]

Just 'cos nobody has actually said it, "no your Strat is not doomed (but it's bridge may be...)

[Wonks]

This short video gives a good close up of the bridge I believe is on the guitar.

https://youtu.be/Dsc2082aXJs?si=Sr4RQvavBTScIBht

What I can't make out is if the bridge plate is flat or whether it has grooves in it for the saddle height screws to sit in. Sometimes they have grooves just for the outer screws on the high E and Low E saddles to help stop them splaying out.

If there are small grooves, then as the high E saddle is far forward, the height screw could be sitting right on the very end of the slot, delicately balanced on the flat part, but any slight movement allowing the screw to drop into the slot and reducing the saddle height on one side. If so, either sacrifice some intonation and wind the saddle back slightly so the screw is definitely in the slot, or think about an alternative 2-point bridge that doesn't have the slots or has longer ones.

[Sam Spoons]

Thinking about this there is something very odd going on. @TPv2, is the saddle simply collapsing all the way to the bridge plate in one go or is it gradually reducing in hight over a period of time? Does screwing the hight adjuster(s) back in return it to the correct hight (suggesting that vibration is the cause) or can they no longer support the string pressure (stripped thread)?

If you can see if the saddle is touching the post try sliding a piece of paper or thin card between them.

Just to reiterate what BRX said, thread lock is not a 'fudge' it is a sensible engineering solution to screws loosening due to vibration. Try a dab of Locktite (correct solution), nail polish (next best) or (if you have nothing else available) a tiny dot of superglue applied with the end of a needle.

[Drew Stephenson]

Just wondering if someone has put a metric grub screw into an imperial hole and it's made just enough contact to bite in but not enough to have any strength. That may have led to the thread in the saddle being partially stripped, leading to the second collapse.

[Sam Spoons]

Good point, 3mm is just close enough to ⅛" (3.2mm) to bite but has no strength under load.

[Wonks]

Just wondering if someone has put a metric grub screw into an imperial hole and it's made just enough contact to bite in but not enough to have any strength. That may have led to the thread in the saddle being partially stripped, leading to the second collapse.

Once maybe, but you've missed the bit about having a new saddle and screws and it's still happening.

[Wonks]

Here's the Graphtech String saver with the offset intonation screw.

Not cheap, but well made and they do help with tuning with trem use.

https://graphtech.com/collections/strin ... ect-finish

[TPv2]

Dear all,

I greatly appreciate all the replies and everything is taken on board.

I am not going to have the time to reply individually to everyone but Wonks has been very thorough so I have replied point by point.

But thank you everyone.

From what I can see, and from the Fender description, the guitar is fitted with a 2-point trem and stainless steel 'block' saddles. If you've fitted any other type of saddle e.g. standard pressed steel ones, then let us know.

There shouldn't be anything inherently wrong with this arrangement, so it may be down to something specific with your particular setup.

How high off the bridge plate do your saddles sit?

Yes they are block saddles. They sit from just a couple of millimetres from the plate (low E) up to maybe 4 or 5 millimeters for the middle strings (eyeballed not measured).

I trust the intonation has been checked and set up correctly, and that's the reason the high E saddle is that far forward.

Yes. The intonation is perfect with the bridge floating and the action is supremely comfortable.

Where do the grub screws sit in relation to the top of the saddles. All poking out? Some flat with the top and others slightly high or very slightly below the top? Or all sitting well below the top in the screw channel?

No poking out. Mostly almost flush.

Are your saddles arranged so they all sit parallel to the bridge plate, or are the tops angled so they roughly form a radius shape that matches the fretboard radius?

They are parallel now. I suspect someone had trialled it and when I first had it the saddles were rounded to follow the radius and they were not parallel to the plate. It was shocking to see, and I straightened them. Then when the professional setup was made they were straight as well.

And are you happy with the way the guitar is set up or do you feel the action is too high or too low?

Couldn't be happier. That's why I don't like the idea of returning the guitar.

The saddles should sit parallel to the bridge plate. You can use a radius gauge resting on the strings if you want to set the middle saddle heights once you're happy with the two outer E strings, but the saddles themselves need to be flat relative to the bridge plate for the two height adjustment screws to sit properly. If angled, the pressure is all on the screw with the smallest amount sticking out, which can cause buzzing from the other screw. Doesn't sound like your issue but I'll ask anyway.

Good point but yeah, they are parallel now.

If the screws are sitting well down in the saddle holes, then the saddles should be pretty high off the bridge plate. This indicates (to me anyway) that the neck angle is too great and there may be a factory fitted (or by others if you didn't buy it new) shim in the neck pocket. This either needs to be reduced in height, or else removed, so that the screws sit level with or just below the surface of the saddles. Whilst they can sit slightly proud, the more they stick out, the more uncomfortable it is to rest your hand on the bridge.

Well there is a shim because the Jeff Beck Strat comes with the LSR roller nut, and that is supplied with shims. I believe it was factory fitted and absolutely normal.

You can get replacement saddle height screws from the likes of Allparts (being a US model you'll need imperial threads), which come in three lengths. So choose a length appropriately longer (or shorter) than the existing screw length.

Noted, but the saddle and screws have been replaced already, with Fender sourced parts!

If the screws are just steel and the saddles stainless steel, then with the addition of moisture (e.g. sweat) the steel can corrode through galvanic action, so the edges of the threads might rust away. If the screws are well down in the saddle holes, then all the pressure is on the edges of a few thread turns, making it more likely they give way.

I think they are steel (not shiny). Only the custom shop has shiny saddles. The Artist Series has the dull looking metal.

But if so, it is strange that no other saddles are affected.

Yes.. but now I'm thinking again about the proximity to the tree post. This is the only saddle close enough as if to touch the post (with my bad eyesight I can't see a gap). So perhaps vibration from the post is passed to the saddle and screws?

So we do need a lot more detail to help us.

If it is simply that the block screw threads are a bit oversized, then the previously suggested PTFE tape or Loctite are good solutions to try.

As an Ibanez player over decades, the idea of gluing metal on a bridge is as weird and uncomfortable as it gets for me... but perhaps I have to accept that a Strat is a different animal. Either that or return it and get a Suhr or something.

[Wonks]

It's not a different animal at all. Something just isn't right here.

[S2]

Just wondering if someone has put a metric grub screw into an imperial hole and it's made just enough contact to bite in but not enough to have any strength. That may have led to the thread in the saddle being partially stripped, leading to the second collapse.

I thought the saddle had been replaced?

[Wonks]

It has and it still went wrong.

[TPv2]

It has and it still went wrong.

Yep.

[TPv2]

I cannot push a piece of paper between the saddle and the post and I strongly suspect the culprit is vibration passing from the post on to the saddle and screws assembly.

But the intonation is good with the saddle where it is!