Multiple Synths set-up to record

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Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by pp-piano »

Hey everyone - I have the classic problem of two many synths and not enough inputs.

My current set-up is the Apogee Duet 3, and I have 3 microphones I'd like permanently set-up alongside with 4 synths. The Duet takes 2 XLR + 2 line inputs.

I've checked some other threads and the three paths forward seem to be:
  • upgrade to Apogee Symphony Studio 8x8 mega $$$$
  • get a patchbay
  • get a mixer
I've checked a recent other thread on this, and still have a couple of questions:
If I went the mixer route, is there a risk of losing meaningful signal quality? Presumably it should be keep the mics into the Duet (for the pre-amps) then synths into mixer?

I've seen the Behringer RX1602 V2 referenced as a good simple no-frills mixer. But, I noticed it doesn't have XLR inputs. So in this scenario, I'd still be stuck unable to record more than 2 mics at once. Does anyone have a recommendation for a more capable mixer?

I had another sneaky question too - I'm seeing the 1073 Neve pre-amp referenced basically everywhere as the gold standard for a mic pre-amp (with many good clones out there) - does anyone have thoughts on how this compares to the Apogee pre-amps? I noticed that on the Symphony they seem to have a digital emulation that you can add onto the channels.

I think I'm making the grave forum error of cross-posting, so apologies, but I couldn't see my specific question in other posts.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Sam Spoons »

The Duet 3 only appears to have 2 inputs according to the web page so there is no way to have three mics plugged in at once even with an external mic preamp so in your situation I'd go for an audio interface with more inputs.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Wonks »

What Sam said. But there are other good audio interfaces out there, you don't need to stick to Apogee.

Are the synths mono or stereo? You are looking at 11 inputs in total with three mics and four x stereo line inputs. Which is an awkward number as audio interfaces go. If you can keep it down to 8 or less, then you'll fit the standard 8 input footprint.

Otherwise you'll probably be best off with say a 4x mic input unit that has ADAT in, so you can connect an 8 input interface to that for the synths.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by The Elf »

An RME Fireface 802 would be worthy of consideration.

Front inputs 7/8 on the older Firewire 800 model used to be shared by both front and rear connectors, but I believe that inputs 9-12 are fully independent with the model 802. If anyone can confirm this being the case I'd say that the 802 is as good a match as you're likely to get.

Plus you'd get TotalMix, which is fabulous.

If your needs increase then you can add more I/O via the ADAT connections.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Wonks »

Yes, 12 inputs on the 802.

https://rme-audio.de/fireface-802.html

8 line-in on the rear and 4 mic/line on the front.

Plus ADAT expandability for the future.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by MOF »

I had another sneaky question too - I'm seeing the 1073 Neve pre-amp referenced basically everywhere as the gold standard for a mic pre-amp (with many good clones out there) - does anyone have thoughts on how this compares to the Apogee pre-amps? I noticed that on the Symphony they seem to have a digital emulation that you can add onto the channels.

The 1073 is most likely not the gold standard in the highest fidelity sense, it is known more for the character it imparts, especially when the gain is increased for subtle distortion.
Rupert Neve designed the ISA range for George Martin’s AIR Studios to have more bandwidth, better noise figures etc and both are still produced. They both have transformers as part of their design but it could be argued that you need transformerless designs to to get a ‘wire with gain’ preamplifier.
So maybe the best thing is to get the most accurate preamplifiers and then use ‘character’ plugins to effect your audio.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Wonks »

Better to say the 1073 is a classic preamp, which is still very popular, but technically there are better preamps available with greater transparency. But the character it can impart when deliberately pushed can be quite pleasant. I’d be very happy to have one (as well as several other different preamps). But I’m happy to use software emulations.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Arpangel »

You’re putting "ultimate" audio quality before creative flexibility not a good idea in my book.
Audio quality is important, but not "that" important, even the cheapest budget interfaces are more than good enough these days.
You’re set-up is very limiting, you only have two inputs, you can only record two sources at once, even if you got the worlds biggest mixer, you’d still only be able to record two tracks.
My advice would be to get an 8 input interface expanded with something like a Behringer ADA8200 or similar, that will give you 16 line inputs, if you need more just ad an external mixer, this will not "meaningfully" degrade your signal.
I'm similar to you, I have a lot of hardware requiring inputs, I have the interface/expander set-up "and" a mixer, with the group outputs of the mixer connected to 8 of the interface inputs, I can record more than 8 sources at once if I need to, with anything routed anywhere.
Don’t worry too much about quality, these days it really isn’t an issue, it’s all good.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by ajay_m »

I've posted a few times on this elsewhere but the decision I made a couple of years ago to make the Yamaha DM3s mixer the centrepiece of the studio solved so many problems for me. It now sells for £1300 too, which is £200 less than I paid. That is still a wodge of cash but you are getting 16 analogue ins with proper digital gain control that accept everything from ridiculous signal levels (there's an automatic pad built in that engages for high input levels) down to a +64dB max gain plus 8 analogue outs plus a 16 channel desk with motorised faders that can also act as a DAW controller. Then you have an 18:18 audio interface that can do 96KHz as well all in something about the size of a laptop.

I have several external synths and this setup lets me immediately interact with them without even firing up the DAW. I do have an old kmx8 8x8 midi patchbay as well that lets me instantly connect one of three keyboards to any synth. Then I can set the mixer to record a stereo WAV or MP3 file to a thumb drive plugged in permanently so any great ideas or a rough mix can be instantly captured.

I dont know how the preamps compare to the highest grade mastering convertors but this is not your father's old semi pro analogue mixer and with listening levels set to "make the neighbours dog bark" settings there is no discernible background noise. For a couple of older synths that are a touch noisy in their own right, a noise gate at -70dB works great and after all you have full dynamics processing and EQ on every channel.

I also have multiple monitors set up, the 8 assignable outs let me just set up stereo busses for these plus one for headphones. The ergonomics are just great, frankly and I wonder how I ever managed before I got this little wonder.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Arpangel »

ajay_m wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 8:36 am I've posted a few times on this elsewhere but the decision I made a couple of years ago to make the Yamaha DM3s mixer the centrepiece of the studio solved so many problems for me. It now sells for £1300 too, which is £200 less than I paid. That is still a wodge of cash but you are getting 16 analogue ins with proper digital gain control that accept everything from ridiculous signal levels (there's an automatic pad built in that engages for high input levels) down to a +64dB max gain plus 8 analogue outs plus a 16 channel desk with motorised faders that can also act as a DAW controller. Then you have an 18:18 audio interface that can do 96KHz as well all in something about the size of a laptop.

I have several external synths and this setup lets me immediately interact with them without even firing up the DAW. I do have an old kmx8 8x8 midi patchbay as well that lets me instantly connect one of three keyboards to any synth. Then I can set the mixer to record a stereo WAV or MP3 file to a thumb drive plugged in permanently so any great ideas or a rough mix can be instantly captured.

I dont know how the preamps compare to the highest grade mastering convertors but this is not your father's old semi pro analogue mixer and with listening levels set to "make the neighbours dog bark" settings there is no discernible background noise. For a couple of older synths that are a touch noisy in their own right, a noise gate at -70dB works great and after all you have full dynamics processing and EQ on every channel.

I also have multiple monitors set up, the 8 assignable outs let me just set up stereo busses for these plus one for headphones. The ergonomics are just great, frankly and I wonder how I ever managed before I got this little wonder.

That DM3 looks very interesting, notice it only has eight faders, are layers involved? I know nothing about digital mixers. So, it’s a mixer, an interface, and a control surface, plus FX etc?
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Arpangel »

pp-piano wrote: Mon May 05, 2025 2:08 pm I've seen the Behringer RX1602 V2 referenced as a good simple no-frills mixer.

PS, I'm normally a fan of Behringer gear here, but I had one of these, I'd steer clear of it, it's OK for very non-demanding things, but I sent mine back as the sound wasn’t good at all, you can do better than this.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by ajay_m »

Arpangel wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 10:02 am That DM3 looks very interesting, notice it only has eight faders, are layers involved? I know nothing about digital mixers. So, it’s a mixer, an interface, and a control surface, plus FX etc?

Yes, there are two layers, for the main inputs, and the faders will all jump to the settings as appropriate when you press either input 1-8 or input 9-16 buttons.
Plus two more custom layers which let you put anything on the faders (there's a custom1 and custom2 button for these). Those custom layers let you remap all 9 faders to anything you want so the master fader doesn't have to be an output, as it would be in the main fader view.

And because you can gang faders together so they track for stereo sources, you need only put one of these in the custom view and it'll then control the track pair, you don't need both faders in there. So with all stereo sources you can in fact put all 16 channels in one custom view and treat the mixer as an 8 stereo track device. [actually it has 22 logical signal paths, not 16, because the playback L/R and both FX returns are remappable. This means that you can therefore mix a total of 16 analogue inputs PLUS six more USB inputs back from the DAW at any one time, (and note that, as I mention below, the ability to split the single audio interface into several separate ones, means that the audio inputs through USB do not have to be constrained to just a single source, you could have the DAW plus OBS Studio plus some other piece of software all running connected to what they see as their own audio device, and bring them back to the desk).

Of course there are lots more 'layers' if you like, since you can switch views to all your busses (and even put the graphic EQ on all the faders as well).

And yes, you are correct. It is a mixer, interface and control surface all in one little box, with a touch screen about the size of a smaller iPad (and very good quality). All the inputs show what they are connected to as the 'scribble strips' - with per-track metering - align at the bottom of the screen with the fader strips.
[there is also a dedicated metering view but the screen resolution is so high that even the scribble strip meters are more than adequate, much much better than the half-dozen LEDs you were lucky to get in old-school mixers]

Then every channel has two dynamic processors, one with sidechaining, plus four band parametric EQ and there are two global FX processors with a fairly wide range of the standard reverb, delay, chorus etc. bread and butter effects.

Unlike older analogue mixers, the preamps and processing are pretty much pristine, and while you are probably a few dB short of a mastering grade convertor, I would say the quality is comparable to most good quality audio interfaces.

You switch into DAW controller mode by pressing the custom1 and custom2 buttons together. Then a special screen comes up with the DAW timeline, automation buttons and various other things, and if you have an appropriate HUI-compatible control surface plugin in the DAW, then you now have full duplex control of most major DAW params. Cubase, because Yamaha own it, has probably the best support, but Reaper works well with the free DrivenByMoss plugin. Other DAWs might require some work though and Ableton I definitely haven't had any luck with currently.

Of course, you can also route anything to anything pretty much, giving you enormous flexibility. It supports group busses as well, where you can effectively 'disconnect' inputs from going to the main stereo bus, route them through a bus for a submix and/or processing, then route the whole thing back to the main stereo out. It'll definitely take you a few hours to get your head around the whole thing but that's because it's a proper professional digital mixer - it now has automix as well so it makes a great podcasting tool, and as well as this you can reconfigure the 18:18 USB interface to be several separate interfaces, for people doing video editing and whatnot where each piece of software wants to have control of its own audio device, but this means that you don't have the problem of the DAW necessarily taking exclusive control, since you can give it one of the interfaces (I think things split into 2 separate 2:2 stereo devices plus one 12:12 interface in this mode). Then mix it all together inside the mixer.

I do get that you can kind of have this flexibility with stuff like RME and TotalMix but not in a package with actual knobs and buttons and faders that'll work with or without a DAW connected. This is where the DM3 shines. It lets you focus on interacting with stuff without faffing around with the computer at all, unless you need to.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Arpangel »

ajay_m wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 11:49 am
Arpangel wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 10:02 am That DM3 looks very interesting, notice it only has eight faders, are layers involved? I know nothing about digital mixers. So, it’s a mixer, an interface, and a control surface, plus FX etc?

Yes, there are two layers, for the main inputs, and the faders will all jump to the settings as appropriate when you press either input 1-8 or input 9-16 buttons.
Plus two more custom layers which let you put anything on the faders (there's a custom1 and custom2 button for these). Those custom layers let you remap all 9 faders to anything you want so the master fader doesn't have to be an output, as it would be in the main fader view.

And because you can gang faders together so they track for stereo sources, you need only put one of these in the custom view and it'll then control the track pair, you don't need both faders in there. So with all stereo sources you can in fact put all 16 channels in one custom view and treat the mixer as an 8 stereo track device. [actually it has 22 logical signal paths, not 16, because the playback L/R and both FX returns are remappable. This means that you can therefore mix a total of 16 analogue inputs PLUS six more USB inputs back from the DAW at any one time, (and note that, as I mention below, the ability to split the single audio interface into several separate ones, means that the audio inputs through USB do not have to be constrained to just a single source, you could have the DAW plus OBS Studio plus some other piece of software all running connected to what they see as their own audio device, and bring them back to the desk).

Of course there are lots more 'layers' if you like, since you can switch views to all your busses (and even put the graphic EQ on all the faders as well).

And yes, you are correct. It is a mixer, interface and control surface all in one little box, with a touch screen about the size of a smaller iPad (and very good quality). All the inputs show what they are connected to as the 'scribble strips' - with per-track metering - align at the bottom of the screen with the fader strips.
[there is also a dedicated metering view but the screen resolution is so high that even the scribble strip meters are more than adequate, much much better than the half-dozen LEDs you were lucky to get in old-school mixers]

Then every channel has two dynamic processors, one with sidechaining, plus four band parametric EQ and there are two global FX processors with a fairly wide range of the standard reverb, delay, chorus etc. bread and butter effects.

Unlike older analogue mixers, the preamps and processing are pretty much pristine, and while you are probably a few dB short of a mastering grade convertor, I would say the quality is comparable to most good quality audio interfaces.

You switch into DAW controller mode by pressing the custom1 and custom2 buttons together. Then a special screen comes up with the DAW timeline, automation buttons and various other things, and if you have an appropriate HUI-compatible control surface plugin in the DAW, then you now have full duplex control of most major DAW params. Cubase, because Yamaha own it, has probably the best support, but Reaper works well with the free DrivenByMoss plugin. Other DAWs might require some work though and Ableton I definitely haven't had any luck with currently.

Of course, you can also route anything to anything pretty much, giving you enormous flexibility. It supports group busses as well, where you can effectively 'disconnect' inputs from going to the main stereo bus, route them through a bus for a submix and/or processing, then route the whole thing back to the main stereo out. It'll definitely take you a few hours to get your head around the whole thing but that's because it's a proper professional digital mixer - it now has automix as well so it makes a great podcasting tool, and as well as this you can reconfigure the 18:18 USB interface to be several separate interfaces, for people doing video editing and whatnot where each piece of software wants to have control of its own audio device, but this means that you don't have the problem of the DAW necessarily taking exclusive control, since you can give it one of the interfaces (I think things split into 2 separate 2:2 stereo devices plus one 12:12 interface in this mode). Then mix it all together inside the mixer.

I do get that you can kind of have this flexibility with stuff like RME and TotalMix but not in a package with actual knobs and buttons and faders that'll work with or without a DAW connected. This is where the DM3 shines. It lets you focus on interacting with stuff without faffing around with the computer at all, unless you need to.

Thanks for taking the time to explain all that, it sounds very interesting indeed, couple of questions, is it a multitrack interface? and do the effects have a few of the classic SPX algorithms in there?

:thumbup:
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by ajay_m »

Arpangel wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 4:23 pm Thanks for taking the time to explain all that, it sounds very interesting indeed, couple of questions, is it a multitrack interface? and do the effects have a few of the classic SPX algorithms in there?
:thumbup:

So, the desk itself is not a multi-track *recorder*. It can only record a stereo pair to the thumbdrive you plug in to the USB socket on the front panel. That can come from anywhere, including a bus where you could create a complete mix and then send it for recording, or it could just be the master stereo out. Recordings can be WAV file or MP3 at a range of sample rates.

However it *is* a multi-track audio interface. And so of course you can do multi-track recording back to the computer. By default it presents 18 input channels and 18 output channels. These can be connected up to any source (for example, you could route analogue input channel 1 to usb input channel 1, and analogue output channel 1 to usb output channel 1.

However the mappings can be completely random, it's your choice. And because each configuration is saved as a 'scene' you can have hundreds of different scenes each with different setups and instantly switch between them.

BUT

It can also configure itself to look like four separate audio interfaces. 3 of these are stereo in/out and 1 is 12 inputs and 12 outputs. The idea here is that you may have multiple pieces of software on your computer that all want to control an audio device exclusively. With most audio interfaces that's of course a problem because they only present as one device. But the DM3 gives you the option of either presenting as a single 18:18 audio interface or the four separate ones, so that you could do truly weird things like connect two separate DAWs up to it at the same time. Or of course, more realistically, software like OBS studio at the same time as, say, Reaper.

ALSO

Every channel and every bus has an insert point. You can route signal out of the insert point to any USB input and back in the other side from any USB output. This lets you 'plug in' an effect hosted on your computer, not just therefore the built-in effects.

Now Yamaha don't say much about the provenance of the effects algorithms. So I can't say for sure where they come from. There are 8 reverbs, called Rev HD Hall, Rev HD Room, Rev HD Plate, Rev R3 Hall, room and plate and finally Early Ref and Gate Reverb

There are five delay algorithms,mono, stereo, lcr, echo and ping pong and then finally a further five modulation algorithms, chorus, flange, symphonic, phaser and pitch shift.

All of these are clean and sound pretty good but where they come from I'm afraid I don't know, in terms of Yamaha kit.

EDIT: The R3 reverbs come from this piece of 1995 Yamaha kit. I'd imagine they are not a million miles away from the SPX reverbs therefore

https://www.vintagedigital.com.au/yamah ... erberator/
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Arpangel »

Thanks Ajay, ha! so it's capable of "really weird things" it's on the way! :)
No, this is the first digital desk that's really tempted me, it sounds like a good combination of the things I have at the moment, but in a more powerful more streamlined package. That thing about using it as separate interfaces sounds really cool, not sure why, but I know I'd use that!

:thumbup:
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by ajay_m »

You will hate the manual and you will hate the Yamaha presenter who does the promotional videos. That's unfair of me because I am sure he is a lovely person and it is mean of me to say that. But. See what you think.

But as a piece of kit it is one of very few things I have ever bought (Hydrasynth 49 and subsequently Deluxe being one of the other honourable exceptions) where my expectations were exceeded and where the promise that this "thing" would actually be inspirational and useful, were fully met.

Of course having to rewire everything with xlrs because Yamaha wouldn't put combi jacks on all inputs and outputs was ... Character building but on the other hand xlrs do tend not to suffer from crud building up over time and introducing annoying crackles.

Otherwise every day when I go into the studio I think "how the heck did I ever manage without this".
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Arpangel »

ajay_m wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 9:56 pm You will hate the manual and you will hate the Yamaha presenter who does the promotional videos. That's unfair of me because I am sure he is a lovely person and it is mean of me to say that. But. See what you think.

But as a piece of kit it is one of very few things I have ever bought (Hydrasynth 49 and subsequently Deluxe being one of the other honourable exceptions) where my expectations were exceeded and where the promise that this "thing" would actually be inspirational and useful, were fully met.

Of course having to rewire everything with xlrs because Yamaha wouldn't put combi jacks on all inputs and outputs was ... Character building but on the other hand xlrs do tend not to suffer from crud building up over time and introducing annoying crackles.

Otherwise every day when I go into the studio I think "how the heck did I ever manage without this".

The reason I’m interested in this is because I trust Yamaha, they know what they are doing, and haven’t failed me in all the years I’ve been using their incredibly inspiring keyboards.
I think this is going to be worth the learning curve.
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Chimera »

The Elf wrote: Mon May 05, 2025 4:12 pm An RME Fireface 802 would be worthy of consideration.

Front inputs 7/8 on the older Firewire 800 model used to be shared by both front and rear connectors, but I believe that inputs 9-12 are fully independent with the model 802. If anyone can confirm this being the case I'd say that the 802 is as good a match as you're likely to get.

Plus you'd get TotalMix, which is fabulous.

If your needs increase then you can add more I/O via the ADAT connections.

I have a used 802 available if anyone needs one!
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by resistorman »

ajay_m wrote: Tue May 06, 2025 5:44 pm
It can also configure itself to look like four separate audio interfaces. 3 of these are stereo in/out and 1 is 12 inputs and 12 outputs. The idea here is that you may have multiple pieces of software on your computer that all want to control an audio device exclusively. With most audio interfaces that's of course a problem because they only present as one device. But the DM3 gives you the option of either presenting as a single 18:18 audio interface or the four separate ones, so that you could do truly weird things like connect two separate DAWs up to it at the same time. Or of course, more realistically, software like OBS studio at the same time as, say, Reaper.

That is mad :shocked::crazy: A feature I've never even heard of!
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by yeroc »

pp-piano wrote: Mon May 05, 2025 2:08 pm Hey everyone - I have the classic problem of two many synths and not enough inputs.

My current set-up is the Apogee Duet 3, and I have 3 microphones I'd like permanently set-up alongside with 4 synths. The Duet takes 2 XLR + 2 line inputs.

I've checked some other threads and the three paths forward seem to be:
  • upgrade to Apogee Symphony Studio 8x8 mega $$$$
  • get a patchbay
  • get a mixer


Something like the Franklin SS6 or a heritage audio synth buddy could do you good !
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Re: Multiple Synths set-up to record

Post by Martin Walker »

yeroc wrote: Wed May 21, 2025 1:59 am Something like the Franklin SS6 or a heritage audio synth buddy could do you good !

We had a good discussion about both of these two devices in this recent thread:

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... 7&p=949219
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