Advice for first stereo recording of acoustic guitar with high quality microphones

[shaunlawler]

I am relatively amateur with recording acoustic guitar - I have made a few YouTube videos in the past using Garageband to record the sound with a basic vocal microphone and then synced this up with video footage using Final Cut Pro.

I would now like to take this more seriously and have invested in a pair of matched Gefell M300 microphones for stereo recording using Logic Pro.

The question is - where do I start?

Is it as simple as:

- recording into Logic Pro using both mics (spaced apporporiately) and then panning one microphone hard left and one hard right?

- then applying a form of EQ on top of this - i.e. compression but experimenting with different effects?

I may need to try and find a "noddy's" guide to this, to make sure my approach is correct, but would really appreciate any initial steers.

Thank you for any help!

Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk

[Sam Spoons]

Welcome to the forum

The first thing to ask is how good sounding is your recording room? Close miking is not usually the best way to record acoustic instruments as the mics focus in a small part of the instrument and don't get a complete sound. But more distant miking, say at least 12" from the guitar, will pick up a lot of room sound and very few rooms that us amateur/semi-pro recordists use sound good enough.

[shaunlawler]

Welcome to the forum

The first thing to ask is how good sounding is your recording room? Close miking is not usually the best way to record acoustic instruments as the mics focus in a small part of the instrument and don't get a complete sound. But more distant miking, say at least 12" from the guitar, will pick up a lot of room sound and very few rooms that us amateur/semi-pro recordists use sound good enough.

Thank you and pleasure to be here, although I celery have a lot to learn.

The room I will be recording in is relatively small with heavy furniture in and pictures on the wall etc and when i do the clap test, there isn't any reverb.

I will be getting some advice on acoustic boards to place in the rook to help but for now I think the acoustic space should be adequate.

My only barrier now is how to actually go about recording, especially in stereo...

Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk

[Wonks]

And don’t expect a huge sound just because you are using two good mics. The acoustic guitar isn’t a stereo instrument per se. Not like a piano where you’ve got a big distance between the bass and treble strings so there’s a definite right/left component to the sound.

You’ll get more treble from a mic pointing at the neck join area and more bass from one pointing at the rear part of the soundboard, so you can certainly get two distinct sounds to pan. But very little true stereo information. But it does give a wider picture than a single mic does.

You can get more of a stereo effect by putting the mics above the low E and below the high E, so you get a ‘vertical guitar’ effect with the mics panned hard right and left, so the bass strings are emphasised on one side and the treble on the other, but it’s not an effect I personally like (as a guitar player myself).

[shaunlawler]

.

[Sam Spoons]

The room I will be recording in is relatively small with heavy furniture in and pictures on the wall etc and when i do the clap test, there isn't any reverb.

I will be getting some advice on acoustic boards to place in the rook to help but for now I think the acoustic space should be adequate.

My only barrier now is how to actually go about recording, especially in stereo...

Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk

Have you recorded your 'clap test'? I'm prepared to bet your room has significant reverb and flutter echo but our ears and brains are adept at focusing it out so it will sound dry when you only listen as you perform the test.

The duvet trick is often suggested to minimise echo when recording in less that ideal rooms but it is hard to make it work for echo between floor and ceiling.

As Wonks says the acoustic guitar does not really project a stereo soundfield so using two mics to capture an acoustic guitar in true stereo really means capturing the room in stereo, hence the importance of a good sounding room. If you record in a very dry environment you can then use a stereo reverb to simulate a nice room.

WRT miking techniques there are loads of articles in the magazine, here are a couple to be going on with.

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... asterclass

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... itar-sound

[Drew Stephenson]

Two further suggestions, and one consideration.
Firstly, the suggestions, both courtesy of Mike Senior:
1) have a look at the samples on Mike's library of microphone positions: https://www.cambridge-mt.com/rs2/lmp/
Scroll down for the acoustic guitar stuff.
2) if you're going to take things more seriously (which a couple of Gefells suggests) then you could do much worse than buy his Recording Secrets book (available on the same page) and the Mixing Secrets companion.

The consideration is to also think about what kind of 'acoustic guitar' sound you want. What we hear as players is often very different to what a listener hears, and what we hear on records is often very different again - depending on the busyness of the mix and the mic technique favoured at the time. So it's worth spending a bit of time listening to some of your favourite tracks to figure out what you're really aiming for.
Good luck.

[Bob Bickerton]

Yes, welcome along.

Geffel M300s are great mics for acoustic guitar, so good choice, you're well set up! Nothing to stop you getting great recordings from a mic perspective.

Wonks suggestion that the acoustic guitar is not strictly speaking a stereo instrument may be true, but it certainly benefits from being recorded in stereo, certainly in solo or exposed parts, so again you're on the right path.

As has been noted the room acoustic plays a big part in the sound you're recording and it's worth pointing out that when we're in a room our brain does a marvellous job of 'translating' what we hear, whereas recordings don't. With this in mind it's important take care to listen to the recorded sound and if there are issues to explore further dampening or even perhaps using a reflective surface, say a wooden panel on the floor to give a bit more life.

The good news is that the SOS has a huge array of articles - do a search for 'Recording Acoustic Guitar' in the top right magazine search. Drew's suggestion of Mike Senior's work is good, but I find them a little overwhelming, and truth to tell you have to dig in and trial for yourself.

Crucially you'll need good closed-back (isolating) headphones and a long enough lead to monitor your mic positions as you set up.

My approach would be to embark on a series of tests, being careful to note mic positioning and your position within the room.

My initial setup explores one mic on the lower bout and second maybe pointed at the 12th fret, but being careful not to pick up boominess from the sound hole. Study the polar pattern of the mics being cognisant of what effect the angle of incidence the mic has on the recorded sound.

In terms of EQ, compression and effects, my approach is to try and record the best sound at source with only the minimum amount of processing (if you're after an acoustic sound). Having said that, some gentle compression, minimum EQ to taste and reverb to place the instruments into a kinder acoustic would not go amiss.

Go well and enjoy!

Bob

[ef37a]

Hmm, I expected someone (not I!) to jump in and explain the difference between true stereo and the result of recording two different areas of an instrument with two microphones?

Dave.

[tacitus]

I'd look for a small church (or similar) that you could record in. IIRC there's some stuff about how Julian Bream liked to record in his book "A Life on the Road" but I can't lay my hands on it just now and of course, it might have been somewhere else, but he did many of hs recordings in a chapel near his home and was heavily into recording technique. I believe it was an 18th century one with lots of wood, but I can think of stone churches I know that woulds probably work as well.

While you can physically record anywhere, if the room's not helping I think that's a major obstacle to getting a good final result and my take on solo guitar is that it should sound very natural. I find that hard to achieve if I haven't go an nice space to start with (and I can still mess it up anyway, so don't imagine I'm laying down the law here!).

You'll still have to decide how close you record and your miking method, but with a good room you can essentially put up a stereo pair and let it record "the whole truth". Obviously you can't just do it in little bites as you can at home, so that's a consideration. Once you've got a good untreated recording as a yardstick, you'll probably change your mind about how good your home recordings are.

Of course, if you're not in a position to take your kit out or there's absolutely no chance of finding a suitable space, then it's duvets at dawn and modelling the space later.

I'll. just go snd look for that book again ...

[Bob Bickerton]

Interesting thoughts from tacitus which got me thinking about the type of acoustic guitar/genre being discussed.

If classical guitar/genre, then definitely a generous natural acoustic would be good, and in my book, essential. But I'd probably use A/B omnis to capture a balanced stereo sound rather than a pair of cardioids positioned to optimise two 'aspects' of the instrument.

But I suspect we're talking contemporary (steel string) acoustic here, in which case using cardioids to create an attractive, perhaps larger than life, sound without due concern about capturing an accurate stereo image and using processing to enhance in a dryer acoustic seems reasonable.

That may have answered Dave's question......... too?

Bob

[ef37a]

Interesting thoughts from tacitus which got me thinking about the type of acoustic guitar/genre being discussed.

If classical guitar/genre, then definitely a generous natural acoustic would be good, and in my book, essential. But I'd probably use A/B omnis to capture a balanced stereo sound rather than a pair of cardioids positioned to optimise two 'aspects' of the instrument.

But I suspect we're talking contemporary (steel string) acoustic here, in which case using cardioids to create an attractive, perhaps larger than life, sound without due concern about capturing an accurate stereo image and using processing to enhance in a dryer acoustic seems reasonable.

That may have answered Dave's question......... too?

Bob

Rather usefully, just seconds after my post a classical guitar recording came on R3 (TV) and was positioned just left of centre of my Tannoys (ears cause the offset) seemed a bit behind the telly screen and in a very nice, believable acoustic. As one would expect of the Beeb? Don't know what the piece was. Why doesn't R3 show what everything is on screen?

But yes Bob, maybe I am being rather pedantic about the term "stereo"?

Dave.

[Arpangel]

Acoustic guitar is one of those instruments that is hard to record badly, it has a sound that has high level transients, and the notes aren’t sustained very long, for some reason these qualities make it easy to record, like harpsichords, sitar, and other basically plucked instruments, if the room isn’t bad, you’re half way there.
My mic of choice for acoustic guitar is an AT4060, it has a dark sound that tends to hide any nasties, without sounding dull, and it works, but I’m sure plenty of others will do the job just as well.

[Sam Spoons]

As I said above when you record an acoustic guitar in 'stereo' you are really recording the room in stereo, getting in close enough for the guitar not to appear as a point source gives you an artificial tonal balance as the two mics are 'hearing' different parts of the instrument which radiate different parts of the overall sound.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I agree with others here. For me, real stereo is entirely about capturing the sound of one or more performers in an acoustic space, and portraying their relative positions with accuracy and realism.

If you're close-miking with two (or more) mics to intentionally eliminate the acoustic space then you're creating a stereo effect . Nothing wrong with that, but the miking 'rules' are very different, and usually the wider and more extreme the effect, the better.

[shaunlawler]

Thank you for all the sage advice.

I will be recording contemporary steel string acoustic guitar - in the broad style of Tommy Emmanuel / Chet Atkins / Andy Mckee / Pierre Bensusan.

Are there are videos/guides available for how you actually go about recording a stereo mic setup in Logic Pro from start to finish?

Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk

[rggillespie]

I found Paul Davids guide useful, if you google 'how to record an acoustic guitar Paul Davids' that should find it. He does it step by step and explains the principles clearly, useful showing compression settings etc. As well as stereo recording, you might consider mid and side as an option at some stage, though you would need a figure of 8 mic to do that. I found that works best for me, hope it goes well for you.

[shaunlawler]

Thank you for all the advice - I have now taken on board comments and worked out how to set up a stereo recording in Logic Pro.

I would now like to work on the acoustics in my room and possibly look at getting some GIK sound treatment boards.

I have added a few pictures below of the space, which is a relatively small room.

Would this type of space benefit much from acoustic room treatment or is it unlikely to make much of a difference?











Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk

[Sam Spoons]

Any untreated room will benefit from acoustic treatment, yours has a lot of flat reflective surfaces and putting some panels on those (roughly ⅓ area coverage) will definitely make a big difference. As a rule of thumb place the panels at 'mirror points' the places where the sound from the monitors* is reflected back to you in your listening position (the side walls, ceiling and back wall).

Bass traps along the wall ceiling junction are a good way to improve the bass response of the room when wall/floor space is limited, you'll still need to check LF when mixing on headphones in a room that small but it should be possible to make a useful mixing environment for the low mids upwards.

You will hear an immediate and significant improvement when you fit the first three or four panels, further improvements will be less dramatic but still very noticeable.

* Or where the sound from an instrument or instrument amplifier would be reflected into the mic recording it though it's more usual to place panels around the mic and amp to prevent/reduce sound getting out into the room. But a ceiling panel over the places where you record makes a big difference in preventing flutter echoes between floor and ceiling.

[rggillespie]

Gik acoustics were very helpful with me, I sent them a floor plan and dimensions and they sent back an idea of what would suit my small space best. It was awhile ago now but I think it was just on their website somewhere, a form to fill in. I made some extra panels myself later on, I just followed the method described on the SOS forum, I still think collectively its the best investment I ever made. Everything became much clearer and my recordings improved despite my questionable talent. Or at least I could now clearly hear the mics and guitar weren't the issue, it was song and player!

[Jimmy B]

Thank you for all the advice - I have now taken on board comments and worked out how to set up a stereo recording in Logic Pro.

I would now like to work on the acoustics in my room and possibly look at getting some GIK sound treatment boards.

I hope that you have made some simple test recordings to see what it sounds like now?
If not, I recommend that you do, using only one microphone to make things easy. It's almost impossible to remember what something sounded like 5 minutes ago, never mind the time that it takes to install acoustic panels.

[James Perrett]

Acoustic treatment would be essential in that room - you will be amazed at the difference just a couple of hundred pounds worth of panels will make.

[ghellquist]

I might also come back to what you are trying to achieve is not really a stereo recording, but probably more of a good sound effect. A true stereo recording (in my world) is done at least a few meters away from the instrument in a good sounding room. The stereo recording is there to give feeling of being there, in the room.

A stereo effect can be achieved several different ways. One way often used is to record the same thing twice or more times. No two recordings will be exactly the same. Place them around in the Left-Right field to taste. You get a kind of wall-of-sound effect that might be pleasing or not. Try to heavily modify one or more of the recordings with insane amounts of EQ, compression, distortion, whatever you have and it at a low volume to the mix.

Otherwise the only advice that really works is to be bold and crazy with mic placement and using your ears to find which works. Maybe try one mic behind your left shoulder, or one on the floor or one outside the room in the corridor or ... Be warned though that as your listening room is not acoustically treated -- listen on the recording in good studio grade headphones when judging. Be warned that recording in the same space as mixing on speakers makes it very difficult to make good decisions unless the room is very well treated (don´t ask me how I know).

[shaunlawler]

Installed my acoustic panels from GIK Acoustics yesterday and amazed with the difference.

The 'clap' test has gone from an echo to a dead sound, which is just what I wanted and surprised by the change.

I also have two free standing panels that go in front of the window that aren't pictured but will be used for recording and critical listening.

Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk

[Sam Spoons]

Looks great.

Glad you are impressed with the results, there is a reason why we are so keen to encourage people to treat their recording/mixing rooms before spending on better equipment as you have discovered.