Could we have a whip round for SOS

[ajay_m]

Ok, look. You reviewed the Avantis Solo. That's nice but rather rich for a lot of people's blood.
I am wondering whether your readers need to have a whip round so you can stop pretending the Wing Compact and the rack version don't exist and actually give them a proper review.
We could have a lottery. Put your tenner in and you have a chance to win the review unit. Wouldn't take a lot of us to raise the money. Otherwise this is silly. I'm sorry but I'm rather jaded with endless boutique compressor reviews right now. What does the audience in the cheap seats here think? I know Behringer won't lend you a review unit but .... It is what it is folks. For every Avantis sold there will be dozens of these out there and we want to see what you think. That's what we're paying a sub for.

[Aled Hughes]

Hmm,

The Avantis isn’t particularly expensive compared to a lot of the competition- yes it’s a lot of money, but there are MUCH more expensive live sound desks out there. The Avantis is probably one of the most expensive things SOS have reviewed in recent memory, which shows they’re not really covering the stupendously esoteric stuff.

The small Avantis is likely to prove very popular, so it’s fair game for a pro audio magazine.

Same goes for boutique studio compressors and nice microphones - if SOS aren’t the people to review them, who are? I think it’s nicely balanced with reviews of cheaper interfaces, mics, headphones, speakers pedals, software, gadgets etc.

[Hugh Robjohns]

...you can stop pretending the Wing Compact and the rack version don't exist and actually give them a proper review.

I think we'd love to, but a review sample doesn't seem to be available.

For every Avantis sold there will be dozens of these out there and we want to see what you think. That's what we're paying a sub for.

I suspect you're right about relative sales volumes, but I think you're paying the SOS sub for rather more than than one hypothetical review... However, if you'd like to buy a Wing and send it over I'll gladly give it the once over for you.

[Arpangel]

I have a lot of Behringer stuff, but that doesn’t matter, I’m not a commercial outfit that has a reputation to keep up, it may not matter to me, but unfortunately Joe public want to see names, in expensive studios, and one of them isn’t Behringer.
I've been in a lot of theatres lately, do I see Behringer Consoles? no, I see a lot of Digico, Yamaha, but no Behringer.

[ajay_m]

I know that was a touch peevish and I apologise but there must be some way to resolve the odd situation where SOS cannot review two products that are redefining the lower end of the live sound market but have functionality comparable to the Avantis at a third of the price. And which are selling in large quantities to the very people who would also read SOS.
I don't have any love for Behringer's decisions about making products available for review nor do I condone their historical business conduct and ethics but regardless of this, we do have a real problem here in that pretty much the last professional sound magazine in print is not reviewing their products any more.
I do get that forking out north of three grand to get these two products is not a sustainable proposition for the magazine. Hence if there were some way to fund reviews like this - and a raffle is one idea - it seems to me this should be looked at.
Anyway I do apologise for sounding a bit grumpy but the Avantis review - a fine product of course - reminded me of the elephant in the room here.

[ajay_m]

PS: I like the high end reviews. You looked at a very expensive mixing desk a few months back as I recall. That was great. I am sure the lovely people at Yamaha would lend you a DM7 compact to review. Incredibly there's one on eBay used in what appears to be excellent condition for 8 grand from what appears to be a reputable seller. That is a hell of a bargain and in my experience eBay's buyer protection is pretty good. The Avantis Solo is nice but the DM7 is a very worthy competitor with a lot more local I/O

[amanise]

Well... it's a trade journal innit. So it's going to have industry level stuff in it - and this can be a very expensive game to get into. So, while I too find less and less in the Mag that I can even relate to as time goes by (because of the sheer price of it) I still enjoy reading about the posh big stuff that I'm never going to get my sticky mitts on. There's still a lot of other stuff to get into in there.

If I understood what it was about a particular bit of kit that made it so much more expensive than a functionally comparable unit, maybe that would help put things into perspective. But, the thing there is understanding it - which I most likely wouldn't. I must say though, checking the tail end of each article to see if whatever it is falls within your budget before getting stuck in really cuts down on the amount of reading you have to do to stay with the program.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I know that was a touch peevish and I apologise but there must be some way to resolve the odd situation where SOS cannot review two products that are redefining the lower end of the live sound market...

I share your frustration. We all do.

Sadly, a growing number of marketing departments think tic-tac-toe 'influencers' and u-toob vloggers are a better, 'cooler' outlet for them....

Maybe they're right...

Although I've been trying to find informative reviews of some specific pa speakers recently and the stuff on oooh-tube has all been woefully shallow, ignorant, unhelpful and, in some cases, blatantly wrong!!

I really don’t know what the solution is, Ajay_m, but I'm sorry, I doubt your raffle idea would be workable. How many people would really be willing to chip in serious money on the chance of winning a slightly used Wing console...?

...if 3000 respond to this post you might be on to something!

We review high end products occasionally because (a) a lot of readers are genuinely interested in them, (b) they give a useful frame of reference for more budget-friendly stuff, and (c) the technology always trickles down, so they give clues as to what lies in the future.

But we do also review budget-friendly gear all the time too. Yes, the Avantis is expensive... but we reviewed the same company's CQ range only a year or so ago — products which pack an enormous amount of capability into a very affordable live mixers.

So the production team does work hard to maintain a balance both within each issue and across the months and years.

[ef37a]

We've been here a few times regarding review anomalies (I have certainly had me moan in the past!) and Hugh and others have explained the difficulties.

Yes, we could easily buy Behringer stuff for test but I understand that there are legal implications if the magazine did not get the manufacturer's permission?
I believe Which Magazine were in and out of court almost as often as Private Eye a decade or so ago? SoS does not I suspect have the resources to go toe-to-toe with Uli's legal team?

Friend Arp' says he does not see Behringer kit in "high places"? Well, maybe if Behringer ever decide that they want to crack the "posh" end markets they will send stuff to the best audio magazine and best blokes to put a Gold seal on it?

Dave.

[Kwackman]

We review high end products occasionally because (a) a lot of readers are genuinely interested in them, (b) they give a useful frame of reference for more budget-friendly stuff, and (c) the technology always trickles down, so they give clues as to what lies in the future.

… and in the future what is now expensive and beyond the reach of us mortals, starts appearing for sale 2nd hand at more affordable prices, and these reviews then become a great resource.

the production team does work hard to maintain a balance both within each issue and across the months and years.

[OneWorld]

................However, if you'd like to buy a Wing and send it over I'll gladly give it the once over for you.
........

You couldn't have put it more succinctly than that

As it happens I too am interested in the Wing Compact, but I'm not shelling out any money till I get the nod from SOS!

[shufflebeat]

I think we'd love to, but a review sample doesn't seem to be available.

I think this is also telling. If I were a manufacturer with confidence in my product I’d want everyone to be shouting about it.

If I were a manufacturer with doubts about my kit and little/no customer support then I’d want to keep a lid on the discussion until the customers’ hard-earned was safely in my off-shore.

I see lots of folks come through the venue I work at, mostly A&H, Digico and Behringer. The Behringer users usually have an explanation as to why they use it (never for the special sound) and never use the Behringer remote app.

[Sam Spoons]

The X32 is a decent mixer, it sounds fine, they have proved reliable and offer features to match much more expensive digital mixers, what's not to like?

Sure the Allen & Heath is probably better in some ways but at a cost and you can't really compare either of them to a Digico (which cost the same as a luxury car while the others are cheaper than a new set of tyres for said car...).

SoS did review the X32 and M32 ranges way back, and favourable, so I don't see any logical reason why Berry would not want their Wing range to be reviewed by them. As Hugh says maybe a change of policy?

I have had one encounter with Berry's UK customer service and they were fine, better than Bose (WRT the S1 Pro battery debacle) were but that's not a statistically useful sample.

[shufflebeat]

The X32 is a decent mixer, it sounds fine…

Strongly agree, particularly as, like your good self, I remember the olden days.

…they have proved reliable and offer features to match much more expensive digital mixers, what's not to like?

For me, the app.

Other people don’t seem to have your experience of reliability and customer care. I see plenty of X32 racks, mainly with passive splits and IEMs. No-one I’ve met tours one with joy in their hearts.

The price thing is undeniable but in the great scheme of things that also comes at a price.

[Sam Spoons]

The reliability comment is something that came up somewhere, the data from Thomann, having sold a significant number of units (at the time Behringer had apparently sold over 25000 worldwide) and their returns rate was a little better than the average for similar products as a whole so I'm happy enough to accept that that is probably pretty close. As I said I've only got one of each so my personal experience is insignificant.

I'me fine with the app, the point, for me, of buying a Compact was the flying faders so the app is not my main interface but I find it gets the job done well enough (setting up monitors or the odd mid-audience FOH tweak).

[Sam Spoons]

The price thing is undeniable but in the great scheme of things that also comes at a price.

Undoubtedly, and I would have loved to have been able to have afforded an A&H SQ (though they didn't exist at the time) it was either the Berry or the Qu and the Qu was ok but the stageboxes were far too expensive to make buying the full rig possible, with the Compact and the Rack (mostly to use as a stagebox but it doubles as a backup desk) costing me barely more than the cost of a Qu16 it was not a difficult decision to make at the time. Now I'm retired it'll do me for my studio and the odd live gig I do.

[shufflebeat]

Your last couple of posts look remarkably like the opinions of other folks I’ve been describing. If I could sell you on the Mixing Station we’d pretty much have a full house.

The only thing outstanding is that *I feel* it looks dodgy to *appear to* be avoiding scrutiny, which was the sub-topic.

[Sam Spoons]

Your last couple of posts look remarkably like the opinions of other folks I’ve been describing. If I could sell you on the Mixing Station we’d pretty much have a full house.

TBF I've been very happy with the X32s, the decision was features vs brand name (X32 vs A&H Qu16) for a given budget. Would the Qu have sounded better? I have no idea but I think I would have been frustrated by it's limitations and lack of affordable stageboxes so I'm happy I made the right decision. I won't be upgrading now I'm retired and the Compact does everything I need.

I have mixing station from when I was using the Mackie most of the time, in that case I like the Mackie app so stuck with it. What is it about the Berry app specifically that you don't like?

The only thing outstanding is that *I feel* it looks dodgy to *appear to* be avoiding scrutiny, which was the sub-topic.

Yup, it's nearly three years since SoS reviewed a bit of Berry kit, the 2600, and it was a favourable review (with no obvious dodginess hiding between the lines).

[Arpangel]

Well... it's a trade journal innit. So it's going to have industry level stuff in it - and this can be a very expensive game to get into. So, while I too find less and less in the Mag that I can even relate to as time goes by (because of the sheer price of it) I still enjoy reading about the posh big stuff that I'm never going to get my sticky mitts on. There's still a lot of other stuff to get into in there.

If I understood what it was about a particular bit of kit that made it so much more expensive than a functionally comparable unit, maybe that would help put things into perspective. But, the thing there is understanding it - which I most likely wouldn't. I must say though, checking the tail end of each article to see if whatever it is falls within your budget before getting stuck in really cuts down on the amount of reading you have to do to stay with the program.

Posh stuff? it’s over hyped and not necessary for most of us, sound quality and creative potential are way down the priority list for some customers of a lot of high end products.
But, the world has to turn, manufacturers have to sell "stuff" and magazines have to review it, often it’s reinventing the wheel, the emperors new clothes, to the point where it's laughable days.
Amanise, you aren’t missing anything, and save your sticky mits for more important things.
I’ve been lucky enough to have owned a lot of high end kit, is it still here? no, for the simple reason that cheaper stuff does the job just as well, and, sometimes better, and I don't have a load of paying clients to impress.

[amanise]

Well... it's a trade journal innit. So it's going to have industry level stuff in it - and this can be a very expensive game to get into. So, while I too find less and less in the Mag that I can even relate to as time goes by (because of the sheer price of it) I still enjoy reading about the posh big stuff that I'm never going to get my sticky mitts on. There's still a lot of other stuff to get into in there.

If I understood what it was about a particular bit of kit that made it so much more expensive than a functionally comparable unit, maybe that would help put things into perspective. But, the thing there is understanding it - which I most likely wouldn't. I must say though, checking the tail end of each article to see if whatever it is falls within your budget before getting stuck in really cuts down on the amount of reading you have to do to stay with the program.

Posh stuff? it’s over hyped and not necessary for most of us, sound quality and creative potential are way down the priority list for some customers of a lot of high end products.
But, the world has to turn, manufacturers have to sell "stuff" and magazines have to review it, often it’s reinventing the wheel, the emperors new clothes, to the point where it's laughable days.
Amanise, you aren’t missing anything, and save your sticky mits for more important things.
I’ve been lucky enough to have owned a lot of high end kit, is it still here? no, for the simple reason that cheaper stuff does the job just as well, and, sometimes better, and I don't have a load of paying clients to impress.

My sticky mitts are firmly shoved as far as they'll do down my pockets. And there they shall stay until something else with flashy lights and swingy needles manages to catch me off guard. When it's all said and done - even for the stuff the big players knock out on their posh desks - most of the output is going to be listened to on earbuds or mp3 players controlled by DJ 'Alexa'.

"Alexa! Play me that really catchy one I like that was developed with Dolby Atmos".

(ducks behind shrapnel shield)

[Wonks]

I would say that SOS is primarily a music technology magazine, not a PA one. It's had six reviews of directly PA-related equipment in the past year (at least in the PA section).

And the majority of that equipment reviewed in SOS over the years is aimed at the amateur/semi pro market. Not the pro/PA hire market.

Of course SOS did have a go at producing a separate live sound magazine, Performing Musician, which ran for 28 issues between 2007 and 2010 but failed to sell enough to make it commercially viable.

But SOS as it stands is not the place where most pro-level PA people would go to see equipment reviews. Or even the semi-pros. The PA content reviews are too few and far between. They would go to the PA related mags/websites or the many Church Sound ones (a huge market for installed systems in the US and big market in many countries).

So I can certainly see why the PA marketing people at Behringer wouldn't see SOS as a primary review site for something like the Wing series.

In terms of getting live sound equipment submitted for review in SOS, I don't think it helps the situation for someone looking at the reviews section on the web site that some of the higher end live PA mixer stuff (rather than studio mixers that could possibly be used for live sound as well) are filed solely under the Mixer section rather than PA/Live Sound.

E.g. the Avantis Solo review isn't listed under the PA/Live Sound section of Review, but the Mixer section. Maybe rightly so (though not consistently so) but I feel that being able to find live sound mixers under both the Mixer and PA/Live sound sections would certainly be of benefit to someone looking for a live sound mixer. Even so, SOS really isn't a magazine that is set up to cater for the more serious PA market.

I know ajay_m is keen to have a review as he's interested in using live sound mixers for home studio purposes after getting his Yamaha DM3, but often the marketing people don't see the lateral uses of a mixer like the Wing. For every 100 Behringer X32 desks doing live sound, there may be just 1 used in a studio for recording purposes. So they would prefer to concentrate increasing the 100 to 110, rather that the 1 to 1.1.

[Arpangel]

I've never really differentiated between studio and PA desks, the one I’m using, a MixWiz, is primarily a PA desk, sometimes PA desks especially analogue ones have features designed for PA that I like, like loads of sends, and matrix outputs.
I must admit to being tempted by that DM3, I may give it a go, if it doesn’t work out fine.

[ajay_m]

The earlier generations of digital mixers were I think hamstrung somewhat by relatively small non touch screens, hence although for live sound the tradeoffs were worth it (much smaller footprint, no FX rack, flexible patching etc), in a home studio arguably there wasn't a real benefit. Hence I looked at the x32 but never went down that route.

The latest generation though with large multi touch screens and fairly comprehensive daw integration as well as stuff like OSC over ethernet (so you could add eg a stream deck for more buttons or knobs) are pretty impressive. Unless you really need very high end convertors, they have pretty good preamps comparable to most dedicated audio interfaces, offer quite generous local I/O (24:8 for the Wing Compact or 16:8 for the DM3) and they have good metering too.

And all those inputs are proper line/mic inputs with auto padding and digital gain control too

They also offer generous digital I/O, 18:18 at 96Khz on the DM3 and 48:48 at 48Khz on the Wing Compact.
On the Wing you also have DIN MIDI as well.

Even if you mostly work ITB there are benefits still. Apart from the DAW controller aspect you have a pretty decent monitor controller. With 8 outs you can easily feed 3 stereo busses and have some alternate monitors and equalise volume etc and a:b between them at the touch of a button. Listening to e.g a pair of small bookshelf speakers vs the main monitors can be really useful in highlighting colouration etc that you otherwise miss because you get used to your primary monitor sound.

If working ITB you can still push the mix out via usb to the desk and work there? Want to see if a compressor might work on that drum track? Try it on the desk then faff around later inserting a plugin on your project. Want to quickly switch between different EQ settings for the vocalist or try different reverbs but you're not sure which you prefer? Set it up on the desk and save to different scenes. Then instantly switch scenes and listen to the differences. Or have the vocalist listen and tweak on the desk. You have multiband parametric EQ and on the Wing, rather a large library of tasty compressors and the like.

So my feeling is that these new generation mixers really do provide a huge benefit in studio ergonomics and given that the one box is then all you need, they are pretty cost effective. Plus if you do location recording you can (at least for the DM3, the Wing is a little larger and heavier) tuck it under your arm, set it up and record the main stereo feed to a usb stick plus multi track to a laptop.

[Arpangel]

It’s looking more attractive, all I can do is try the workflow. I know Yamaha effects and they are good, I trust them to be reliable too.

[DGL.]

Adding to talk about the Behringer Wing, they now seem to trust their customers enough that the internal Dante and WSG cards are user replaceable and there is a tutorial on how to do it on their YouTube page. Interesting that the full-sized and compact Wing hinge up like some keyboards.
The Stageconnect system the Wing features (which other companies can use) also looks really interesting, 32 channels of audio (which can be any mix of send/recieve per channel, so for example 24 Ch in and 8 Ch out, and power along a regular 3 pin XLR cable (though DMX/AES3 compliant cable is preferred). Great for personal mixers and is what the new P24's use.

Also I've seen a recent post from Behringer about their factory renovation and it looks like they're planning to have live cameras in the factory so we can see what is going on, you need to have a lot of trust in your company to do that.