SE-VR2 and SM57 guitar phase issues

[BMADD]

I am recording guitar with a SE VR2 ribbon mic and SM57. I cant seem to get the 2 tracks in phase no matter what i do.
windows 11 64
pro tools artist
focusrite 4i4 ASIO drivers

I have tried having them perfectly aligned on the same speaker, on different speakers and spacing them out and changing cables and swaping the 2 inputs......the 57 when i zoom in to check phase always seems like it is getting the audio a little later than the ribbon no matter how far a move the ribbon back. they are defiantly out of phase i have checked with an eq

[Hugh Robjohns]

...when i zoom in to check phase always seems like it is getting the audio a little later than the ribbon no matter how far a move the ribbon back.

Unless the laws of physics have been suspended where you live, this is not possible. Sound travels at roughly 1 foot per millisecond, so moving one mic further from the source than the other must alter their relative phases.

If you're not seeing /hearing that then you're not looking at what you think you are... or something else pretty wacky is going on in your DAW.

[BMADD]

...when i zoom in to check phase always seems like it is getting the audio a little later than the ribbon no matter how far a move the ribbon back.

Unless the laws of physics have been suspended where you live, this is not possible. Sound travels at roughly 1 foot per millisecond, so moving one mic further from the source than the other must alter their relative phases.

If you're not seeing /hearing that then you're not looking at what you think you are... or something else pretty wacky is going on in your DAW.

thats what im thinking, hoping someone can come up with something like latency from bla bla bla because moving mics around does not fix it

[Wonks]

Could it be something as simple as opposite polarity signals from the mics?

Ah, I see you’ve zoomed in to check phases but are they actually just 180° out of phase?

If so, it’s easy to fix in the DAW, but you could try flipping the ribbon mic as I believe it depends on the side the sound comes in from as to the resulting signal polarity?

[BMADD]

Could it be something as simple as opposite polarity signals from the mics?

Ah, I see you’ve zoomed in to check phases but are they actually just 180° out of phase?

If so, it’s easy to fix in the DAW, but you could try flipping the ribbon mic as I believe it depends on the side the sound comes in from as to the resulting signal polarity?

Wow didnt even know about this, Thank you i will try that.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Yes, the front and rear lobes of an open ribbon mic have opposite polarity. So one way around will be in-phase with the SM57 and the opposite way around will be 'out-of-phase'... but different relative distances will still shift the relative phase.

If I were you, o sort this alignment out, I'd try tapping a guitar string against the pickup to generate a clear transient with an obvious polarity. If you use that to compare waveforms, it should be really easy to match polarities and timings.

Also, bear in mind that a key motivation for the dual mic technique is intentionally to create phase cancellations (and additions) which enhance the tone. Perfect alignment is rarely what is really required.

[BMADD]

Could it be something as simple as opposite polarity signals from the mics?

Ah, I see you’ve zoomed in to check phases but are they actually just 180° out of phase?

If so, it’s easy to fix in the DAW, but you could try flipping the ribbon mic as I believe it depends on the side the sound comes in from as to the resulting signal polarity?

this was it, just flipped the ribbon..........glad i posted here, thought it would be something simple that i just dont know and that was it.......now i know....Thank you so much for your reply

[Wonks]