Dolby Atmos???

[Jathon Delsy]

Can any of m'learned friends clarify what Dolby Atmos is?
I recently discovered it, having just purchased my first smartphone and some top of the range earbuds called Pi8. I have a Tidal subscription for lossless streaming, and I noticed that on the Tidal app, as well as on the Android's own settings, there is an option for Dolby Atmos. Turning this on gave me an immediate wow! I just loved it! I note that it works better on some recordings than others, some it hardly changes at all, and others it very much opens the sound into the three dimensions.
My puzzlement comes from seeing that Dobly are selling software that enables one to mix in Atmos from a DAW.
It is clear that most of the recordings I listen to, that are changed when I turn on the Dolby Atmos function, were not themselves recorded in Atmos, as they are too old. So is the Dobly Atmos on my phone a process added my the phone or by the streaming service?
If I mix in Dolby Atmos, will it have this immersive sound if the listener uses headphones but without turning on a Dobly Atmos function? And if they do turn on this function then will the recording then have a double Dolby Atmos treatment?
If I mix in Dolby Atmos then will this treatment survive, or be enhanced or lessened when I send my recording to a professional mastering service?
Is it possible to leave all the Dobly Atmos stuff to a professional mastering engineer and just mix in stereo as I've always done?
Is there any point in mixing in Dolby Atmos if the streaming service adds it to all recordings if the option is turned on?
Does this Dobly Atmos work on normal stereo speakers. I note that my desktop Tidal does not have a Dobly Atmos option, it is only on my android, and then it is only available if the android is paired with my earbuds.
Is Dolby Atmos only a headphone thing? What happens if a mix done with Dolby Atmos is played through stereo speakers?

It all seems a bit confusing, but no doubt all will become clear in due time, with your help too! The videos on the Dolby site promise a wonderful world of immersive audio and offer to sell you the software to create this. Is this the future or just a fad? Will all music soon be in Atmos?
Thank you for you thoughts.
https://professionalsupport.dolby.com/s ... uage=en_US

[MOF]

It has to be mixed in atmos from multiple sources in your DAW, unless it’s been recorded live with an ambisonic microphone.
You monitor either binaurally or from a dedicated atmos speaker system i.e. all around plus ceiling mounted speakers.

[Luke W]

Can any of m'learned friends clarify what Dolby Atmos is?

Your best starting point would be here:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... sive-audio

That will probably clear up a lot of your questions, but I've scribbled some thoughts below in case they help.

My puzzlement comes from seeing that Dobly are selling software that enables one to mix in Atmos from a DAW.

As the format has become more popular, lots of DAWs now have a version of the Dolby Atmos Renderer built in, so it's no longer strictly necessary to own the standalone application to mix in Atmos.

It is clear that most of the recordings I listen to, that are changed when I turn on the Dolby Atmos function, were not themselves recorded in Atmos, as they are too old. So is the Dobly Atmos on my phone a process added my the phone or by the streaming service?

No, it'll be a remixed version of the original recording.

If I mix in Dolby Atmos, will it have this immersive sound if the listener uses headphones but without turning on a Dobly Atmos function? And if they do turn on this function then will the recording then have a double Dolby Atmos treatment?

Atmos can only be played back by a device that supports the format. Listening to it via headphones requires a binaural rendering step to emulate the spatial information that you would experience when listening on a physical Atmos system. That's how the likes of Apple Music offer immersive content (or Spatial Audio, as Apple call it) playback over headphones.

If I mix in Dolby Atmos then will this treatment survive, or be enhanced or lessened when I send my recording to a professional mastering service?

That would depend on how good the mastering engineer was! Same rules as stereo.

Is it possible to leave all the Dobly Atmos stuff to a professional mastering engineer and just mix in stereo as I've always done?

Generally speaking, it's something that needs tackling at the mix stage.

Is there any point in mixing in Dolby Atmos if the streaming service adds it to all recordings if the option is turned on?

As mentioned a little earler, streaming services don't 'add' Atmos, they just deliver it.

Does this Dobly Atmos work on normal stereo speakers. I note that my desktop Tidal does not have a Dobly Atmos option, it is only on my android, and then it is only available if the android is paired with my earbuds.

No. 'Proper' Atmos requires more than two speakers. I recall Dolby specifying 5.1.2 as a minimum, so a 5.1 surround system + two speakers in the ceiling. Lots of consumer devices implement it with less speakers by using various forms of trickery, and some are better than others. I suspect it's often more to do with putting a trendy Atmos logo on the box than actually offering convincing spatial information, though.

Is Dolby Atmos only a headphone thing? What happens if a mix done with Dolby Atmos is played through stereo speakers?

No, it was initially designed as a speaker thing. The headphone side of things has become popular as its a much more realistic way for consumers to experience it. Assuming everything has been done correctly, stereo speakers would play back a 'fold-down' of the Atmos mix.

Is this the future or just a fad? Will all music soon be in Atmos?

No comment

[Martin Walker]

I'd like to applaud Luke W for his impressive multi-quote answers here - it takes real effort to do this neatly, but as we can all see, the result is very clear and informative.

Bravo

[The Elf]

I create my Atmos mixes on the bare minimum 5.1 monitoring (and also in headphones), and for music mixes I'd suggest this is fine. For anything beyond this (i.e. audio for visuals) you'll likely need to go beyond the Atmos 'bed' and into 'objects', which is not something I've felt a musical need to explore.

Atmos is an interesting diversion for those of us for whom audio is our world, but separate 1 degree beyond our circle of nerds and you will see that nobody cares, or really wants to know. Many, if not most, people will simply tell you that they hear no difference.

I have one project for which I'm creating optional Atmos mixes, but I've not been beating them away at the door of the studio.

[Wonks]

It started out as a development of Dolby 5.1 surround sound for a more impressive cinema experience.

Now whilst I have heard some impressive 5.1 remixes of older material in a DVD format, it's not how I'd generally listen to music. The extra ceiling speakers of full Atmos don't really add any useful information for music unless you are adding very special effects. Which is where it scores for cinema, where you can say have jets flying overhead convincingly etc.

Nowadays, 5.1 is a subset of Dolby Atmos, so you are unlikely to find any dedicated new 5.1 mixing plugs. They will all be Atmos, and you just use a 5.1 speaker arrangement. Unless you are mixing for film or producing audio books with an immersive soundtrack, then the full Atmos 7.1.4 or 9.1.2 speaker arrangement is a lot of extra work when mixing.

[Matt Houghton]

I'd like to applaud Luke W for his impressive multi-quote answers here - it takes real effort to do this neatly, but as we can all see, the result is very clear and informative.

Bravo

Indeed. A great, clear explanation, Luke!

One thing I'd add, which only became clear to me after I interviewed Ian Shepherd for SOS a couple of years ago, is to meet the official Atmos spec the mastered track should be no louder than -18 LUFS-I. This leaves plenty of headroom, and means that dedicated Atmos mixes and masters will often have greater dynamic range than purely stereo mixes. So even if you listen to it only in stereo, the Atmos version can still seem to have more (different?) impact.

[Hugh Robjohns]

As always, it's a case of diminishing returns.

Is stereo more involving than mono? Yes...
Is 5.1 a more impressive than stereo? Of course, at least for a while!
Is Atmos way more immersive than 5.1? Obviously, yes!

But the advantages of the technology are a bit limited to specific applications.

Stereo needs twice as many channels and speakers as mono, while 5.1 needs three times as many as stereo, but Atmos needs at least double the number of channels and speakers as 5.1 — six times as many as stereo — and ideally even more.

So not only do the additional channels and speakers add to the setup costs, they also add greatly to the mixing complexity and storage requirements, and make source recordings massively more complex in many cases....

For 'static' music — normal music with a pseudo stage-like presentation — the only real benefit over 5.1 is the ability to recreate height in the acoustic space and, if there are sources around the sides or rear, better localisation accuracy thanks to the additional side channels.

And, to be fair, the height aspect is surprisingly effective, actually, even if only carrying reverb, in putting the listener in a believable space. It is what boosts the sense of immersion.

But the headline attraction of Atmos is the ability to 'fly' sounds around the hemispherical space and, given sufficient speakers, with remarkable precision.

What applications benefit from aerobatic sound placements? Cinema, of course – especially action films. Gaming, for the same reasons. And I'd suggest club music where whizzing ear candy sounds keeps the interest and involvement up.

Conventional music? Not so much in my view — other than for occasional ear candy effects, but that can get very tacky and tedious very quickly (just as musical elements in rear channels does in 5.1).

Domestically, almost no one can listen to Atmos as Dolby intended. The speakers are always too close to the listeners, degrading the image placement, and no one really wants speakers installed in the ceiling.... or the cost and impracticality of at least 12 speakers all round the sitting room.

So, instead, most consumers go for sound bars that try to create some semblance of the Atmos mix by bouncing sound off walls and ceilings, with all the vagaries and degredations you'd expect.

The more popular and practical Atmos outlet for most consumers is via binaural headphones/ear buds... but the accurate translation of sound positions and movements requires individual HRTFs in the dowmix engine (converting multichannel Atmos mixes to binaural stereo), and while efforts are being made to find ways of deriving and applying personalised HRTFs in a convenient way, proper implementation is still quite a way off.

Of course, Dolby's marketing machine is all powerful, and the whole film, TV, music streaming and consumer equipment industry all champion as the emperor's new cloak that we must all wear.

So, composers are required to supply Atmos tracks. Dubbing and mastering businesses are required to provide Atmos mixes. Cinemas, broadcasters and streamers are required to provide Atmos content and replay chains. And consumers are required to buy Atmos-equipped home audio products.

...and most will probably still listen to stereo most of the time

[The Elf]

...and most will probably still listen to mono most of the time

FTFY

[Hugh Robjohns]

Actually, and depressingly, yes. The majority of people I know now only seem to listen through a single voice-controlled speaker!

[MOF]

Actually, and depressingly, yes. The majority of people I know now only seem to listen through a single voice-controlled speaker!

Is that your way of saying 'other brands are available' when you mean Alexa?
For years it never occurred to me that Blue Peter references to 'sticky backed plastic' was actually 'Sellotape'.

I listen on headphones or on the car stereo, I never was a fan of mono.

[Wonks]

'Sticky backed plastic' was Fablon, not Selotape.

[MOF]

I'd like to applaud Luke W for his impressive multi-quote answers here - it takes real effort to do this neatly, but as we can all see, the result is very clear and informative.

Bravo

I thought about leaving a more detailed reply but it was late and having recently replied to a troll a few weeks ago (who had also just joined) I thought I'd keep it brief.

[Luke W]

I'll admit it: I'm guilty of mono smart speaker listening at home.

Although I do have my trusty cans here for when I want to listen to something properly.

[MOF]

'Sticky backed plastic' was Fablon, not Selotape.

Well that's what I thought but one of those "TV in the (insert decade)" documentaries said it was Sellotape.

[Wonks]

They were wrong! They were definitely using vinyl fabric on a roll when they talked about 'Sticky backed plastic'.

Their 'sticky tape' was always Sellotape. I'm not sure 3M Scotch tape was available in the UK in the 60s, it was always Sellotape. They pretty much had the market sewn up for quite a while.

[The Elf]

'Sticky backed plastic' was Fablon, not Selotape.

Well that's what I thought but one of those "TV in the (insert decade)" documentaries said it was Sellotape.

Definitely wrong. When BP talked about sticky-backed plastic it was as a decorative covering.

The only sticky-backed plastic my mum could find for me was a sheet of tartan pattern. I made a lot of tartan-covered objects that year!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Hey! This is an audio forum the only sticky backed plastic around here is Ampex 406...

Thanks... no, I didn't have a coat.

(And 1960s/70s/80s BP presenters were definitely using the phrase to mean Fablon, not sellotape.)

[Jathon Delsy]

Many thanks for your brilliant replies folks. You guys are the BEST.
All this progress in audio engineering is a bit overwhelming but also it is very exciting. In my lifetime there has been a huge improvement in the quality of the music I listen to.
Once upon a time I would save up my pocket money and buy an album and rush back home to play it on my tinny little record player in the corner of my bedroom. I found this whole experience very exciting as I slowly built up my little collection of records.
But now I can be almost anywhere and access almost any commercially available music and listen to it at super high quality.

[ManFromGlass]

Many, if not most, people will simply tell you that they hear no difference.

Having experienced this at an Atmos demo I would suggest the exception is if you play the Atmos and non-Atmos track back to back.
And
From the creators point of view Atmos gives me spatial options to consider as I write music. This is exciting! Sure, a lot of people might want to place you in front of the band or orchestra traditional style but sounding wider (for lack of a better description). There will be those who will push against the tradition and create some wonderful aural experiences for the headphone/earbud crowd. Imagine bass on the left and vocals on the right . . . . . . Oh wait, that’s been done many years ago hasn’t it?

[The Elf]

Many, if not most, people will simply tell you that they hear no difference.

Having experienced this at an Atmos demo I would suggest the exception is if you play the Atmos and non-Atmos track back to back.

But most people will never do this. And the vast majority simply don't care. That's the reality of it, unfortunately.

[Jathon Delsy]

So, am I right in the following?
Dolby Atmos is a process that is applied at the mixing stage.
A good mastering engineer will leave this applied process intact as he or she does other things to make the music sound great and also ready for commercial release.
The immersive audio will only play back if the sound system or streaming service is compatable. Otherwise the music will play back in normal stereo.
Many older songs have been specially remixed for Dolby Atmos.

Thanks!

[Wonks]

As far as I know, if your playback device doesn’t have n Atmos codec installed, then it won’t know what to do with the information. So you’ll still need a stereo mix as well as the Atmos one. So a smartphone may well give you a stereo mix from an Atmos file given the right app is loaded, but your hi-fi probably won’t.

[Hugh Robjohns]

So, am I right in the following?
Dolby Atmos is a process that is applied at the mixing stage.

Strictly speaking, Atmos is just a popular encoding and distribution format for a multichannel audio mix.

"Mixing in Atmos" really just means creating a multichannel mix with suitable output destinations to feed the Atmos encoder.

In other words, the 'process' is in the encoding and decoding, rather than the mixing. And a multichannel immersive mix could be encoded using alternative technologies, such as DTS:X, or Amphi Hi-D or Auro 3D, or others (albeit none with the industry support that Dobley has built up)