Looking for feedback: mix and remix (somewhere between punk and metal)

[empty signifier]

Hi all,

I’m looking for some critical ears. This song was mixed and released a while back. I still quite like my original mix and would like to retain the overall feel of it, but I think there are some areas that could be improved. Any feedback would be very much appreciated. E.g., which mix do you prefer and why, are there issue in either of them you think I should address, what’s your overall impression, etc.? Don’t hold back on the criticism, I’m not here to be validated but to learn.

Original mix:
https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/sho ... ?tid=52516

New mix:
https://discussion.cambridge-mt.com/sho ... ?tid=52844

What I’m trying to go for: a mix that strikes a good balance between impact, clarity and separation, while sounding natural and human. Basically, the sound of decent band playing in a decent sounding medium-sized venue. Guitar-forward, vocs that have impact but are pushed into the mix, not sitting on top. I want to avoid it sounding too overproduced, too compressed/limited/distorted and too scooped. Not looking to make it ’competitive’ by modern standards, just to make it sound good and make you want to crank up the volume. No explicit references that I’m looking to emulate precisely.

Many thanks for taking a listen!

[OneWorld]

Not sure I can make a definitive observation. I'm listening through the speakers on my 40" tv and I can't hear the bass nor kick drum. But that might be more to be about the tinny speakers my tv has, although I have just gone on YouTube and listened to a music video and can hear the kick drum on that

[James Perrett]

From your post on Mike's site this is a big issue for me.

Drums: samples (AD2)

You seem to have gone to great lengths to obtain your guitar sound yet have skimped on the drums and, to me, it shows.

People often come on here with mix questions when they really need to be thinking whether their production choices are appropriate and whether the performances are right for the song.

[empty signifier]

Not sure I can make a definitive observation. I'm listening through the speakers on my 40" tv and I can't hear the bass nor kick drum. But that might be more to be about the tinny speakers my tv has, although I have just gone on YouTube and listened to a music video and can hear the kick drum on that

Thanks for taking a listen, much appreciated!
Still a challenge ahead then to get the kick and bass to translate. I’m trying to avoid making the kick too loud – audible and pushing yes, death metal/edm no - and it’s already pretty far on the clicky side for my tastes, so not sure what strategy to follow for that. Tips definitely welcome.

[empty signifier]

From your post on Mike's site this is a big issue for me.

Drums: samples (AD2)

You seem to have gone to great lengths to obtain your guitar sound yet have skimped on the drums and, to me, it shows.

People often come on here with mix questions when they really need to be thinking whether their production choices are appropriate and whether the performances are right for the song.

Ha, that’s a fair point and absolutely no disagreement that live drums would have been so much better. Not being able to record those is the one production constraint that really bothers me. But I’m trying to get out what I can get out with what is possible at the moment, and just trying to improve on all fronts, writing, performance, recording and mixing. Thanks for taking the time to provide feedback!

[BWC]

Like James, I think it has "production / arrangement" issues more than it has "mix" issues. I think the problem with those drum sounds is that they're meant to go with that "too scooped" sound that you say you don't want. I'm not suggesting that you should "scoop" the guitars, but that you should find drum sounds that work better with the guitar sounds that you're using. They don't necessarily need to be "live drums", just more carefully chosen to work with the guitar sounds.

[BWC]

...it’s already pretty far on the clicky side for my tastes, so not sure what strategy to follow for that. Tips definitely welcome.

I'd replace the drum samples with something less "metal", and more "rock", warmer and weightier, instead of the more "mechanical / industrial" sounds that work better with scooped guitars.

[James Perrett]

From your post on Mike's site this is a big issue for me.

Drums: samples (AD2)

Ha, that’s a fair point and absolutely no disagreement that live drums would have been so much better.

You don't necessarily need live drums but drums with a bit more thought and sympathy behind them. And keep them in tight time with the rest of the instruments by using subtle tempo changes.

[Drew Stephenson]

Sorry, bit late to this but I needed to listen to this in the studio.
I think I agree with James about the drum sounds, but I think my concern is more that the drums don't feel like they're sitting in the same 'space' as the rest of the track. However James is both a drummer and a mastering engineer so it may well be that what I'm hearing is just the effect of a set of samples that aren't quite right for the mix. Trust his ears over mine.

Couple of other points:
I much prefer the new mix. I think you've cleared out a chunk of mud and that allows the complexity of the music to come through more. I think that would also allow you to bring in a bit of real low frequency content that, personally, I'm missing. It works ok on my monitors but listening on AKG 702s (notoriously bass-light I know), it feels a bit soft to me.
But I do seem to like a bit more bass than most so...

The wide-panned guitars are very effective but have very little cross-talk to the other side. I'd be inclined to add a little reverb or delay to the other side so they feel a little more integrated. (Or if you've already done this, maybe nudge it up a touch.)

The main vocal is resolutely mono. I'd be inclined to add just a bit of width to it, this can give the illusion of bringing it forward in the mix without actually adding any extra level.

I like the glitchy intro and the ending.

[empty signifier]

Like James, I think it has "production / arrangement" issues more than it has "mix" issues. I think the problem with those drum sounds is that they're meant to go with that "too scooped" sound that you say you don't want. I'm not suggesting that you should "scoop" the guitars, but that you should find drum sounds that work better with the guitar sounds that you're using. They don't necessarily need to be "live drums", just more carefully chosen to work with the guitar sounds.

You don't necessarily need live drums but drums with a bit more thought and sympathy behind them. And keep them in tight time with the rest of the instruments by using subtle tempo changes.

Thanks both! Interesting, I’ll see what I can do about this. My intuition is to not blame the tools (the samples), but rather my ears and skills, but maybe in this case I would be better served reconsidering both. The sample kit to me does sound more less like a not-too-extreme rock kit – granted, an insanely well recorded one – and my processing may well still be as much a part of the problem. But will be interesting to see what I can do with this.

[empty signifier]

Sorry, bit late to this but I needed to listen to this in the studio.

I’m just super happy to get your feedback, very helpful!

I think I agree with James about the drum sounds, but I think my concern is more that the drums don't feel like they're sitting in the same 'space' as the rest of the track. However James is both a drummer and a mastering engineer so it may well be that what I'm hearing is just the effect of a set of samples that aren't quite right for the mix. Trust his ears over mine.

Yes, good point. I do hear a kind of ‘not really occupying the same physical space’ that creates a disconnect between the drums and the rest. Tough to figure out. Maybe approaching this with different samples will help. I don’t mind comprising on this issue a little for the sake of a bit more separation, but it should at least allow the listener to close their eyes and imagine a band playing, not just a set of disconnected instruments.

Couple of other points:
I much prefer the new mix. I think you've cleared out a chunk of mud and that allows the complexity of the music to come through more. I think that would also allow you to bring in a bit of real low frequency content that, personally, I'm missing. It works ok on my monitors but listening on AKG 702s (notoriously bass-light I know), it feels a bit soft to me.
But I do seem to like a bit more bass than most so...

Good to hear that I at least managed to make some progress there! Yeah, that low-end is really difficult for me. My lack of any kind of accurate monitoring in the lows doesn’t help, but that’s no excuse. I’m also a bit the opposite, I’m a bit oversensitive to having too much low end, so I have to compensate for that as well. But next time I’m taking a shot at the mix, I’ll see if I can push it further. And perhaps also see if I can find some more space higher up the frequency range for the kick and bass to help them translate.

The wide-panned guitars are very effective but have very little cross-talk to the other side. I'd be inclined to add a little reverb or delay to the other side so they feel a little more integrated. (Or if you've already done this, maybe nudge it up a touch.)

I actually did have an opposite panned, fully wet reverbed (also pretty band-limited and experimented with a slight haas delay) version of both guitars at some stage, precisely for this reason. I took that out because I felt like it just created more clutter in what is already a really busy arrangement and mix, and wasn’t really adding enough to justify keeping it in there. Especially because there is never really a section where there’s just 1 guitar playing. But if it’s hurting the coherence, I might have to reconsider that choice. I did use it on the opening of this song, and quite liked it there (automated it out after the 2nd guitar kicks in though) https://youtu.be/qTchIUyWpg4?feature=shared

The main vocal is resolutely mono. I'd be inclined to add just a bit of width to it, this can give the illusion of bringing it forward in the mix without actually adding any extra level.

That’s interesting, didn’t know that widening can help bring it forward. Definitely going to experiment with that!

I like the glitchy intro and the ending.

Ha, two happy accidents that were to good not to use.

[BWC]

My intuition is to not blame the tools (the samples)...

Are samples "tools" though? I'd say they're "ingredients". Use the best tools you have available that will get the job done, but ingredients, I think, should be chosen a bit more carefully.

I actually did have an opposite panned, fully wet reverbed (also pretty band-limited and experimented with a slight haas delay) version of both guitars at some stage, precisely for this reason. I took that out because I felt like it just created more clutter in what is already a really busy arrangement and mix, and wasn’t really adding enough to justify keeping it in there.

Bring it up in the mix (from silence) until you can just barely notice it's there, then back it off a touch. You don't need much of it.

[Drew Stephenson]

I actually did have an opposite panned, fully wet reverbed (also pretty band-limited and experimented with a slight haas delay) version of both guitars at some stage, precisely for this reason. I took that out because I felt like it just created more clutter in what is already a really busy arrangement and mix, and wasn’t really adding enough to justify keeping it in there.

Bring it up in the mix (from silence) until you can just barely notice it's there, then back it off a touch. You don't need much of it.

You can also high- and low-pass it pretty heavily and/or eq it to get rid of any muddy frequencies whilst still having it do the job.
Of using a delay instead of a reverb, or early reflections only if your reverb allows that, can give you much the same sense of space but without some of the mud.

[James Perrett]

My intuition is to not blame the tools (the samples), but rather my ears and skills, ...

Programming drums properly for a genre like this requires just as much skill as playing them for real. It may be a slightly different skillset that is required but an understanding of how drums fit with the rest of the band is essential. Good drums are rarely in perfect time.