Any PCM91 users here?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Sorry, that probably came across more strongly than I intended.

Tony has a habit of leaping to erroneous conclusions while ignoring the basics...

I'm still having therapy for the Great MixWizard Debacle of 2020....

[Arpangel]

Sorry, that probably came across more strongly than I intended.

Tony has a habit of leaping to erroneous conclusions while ignoring the basics...

I'm still having therapy for the Great MixWizard Debacle of 2020....

Hugh, I'm still investigating this, I’ve ordered a balanced jack socket to two jacks splitter which hasn’t arrived yet, I will try it.
I downloaded the manual, the schematic looks like the inputs are summed into mono to the main processor, so I can't see how feeding both inputs would make any difference?
As for my MixWizzard, of course silly me, I should have realised the the pad button had a dual function as a line selector labelled in writing so small I need a microscope to read it, I mean, that's pretty common practice isn’t it?
Lets get all this into perspective, reverb is essential to music, my FX2000 sounds great compared to this Lexicon (pending splitter)
I never had any issues with my Lexicon 224, and I fed that with a mono send? it sounded fabulous.
Sometimes things are just better, even if the "theory" age or the price, suggests otherwise.
The jury is still out, until I get the splitter.

[ken long]

The SSL has no Midi, so that really is a deal breaker.

Do you mean the SSL 18? It does have MIDI, albeit on a breakout.

[Arpangel]

The SSL has no Midi, so that really is a deal breaker.

Do you mean the SSL 18? It does have MIDI, albeit on a breakout.

Thank you so much for pointing that out, I just looked for Midi sockets! OK, it's back on the list, I like the idea of having something in my studio that has SSL written on it, it may even make people think I’m serious about what I do, after all, buying Behringer is a bit "hobbyist" isn’t it?
Unless something is obvious (like reverb quality) I tend to get a bit confused.

[forumuser840717]

....
I downloaded the manual, the schematic looks like the inputs are summed into mono to the main processor, so I can't see how feeding both inputs would make any difference?...

If, by schematic, you mean the block diagram in the user manual, where do you see mono summing taking place because it doesn't show any mono summing of inputs.

(The separate L/R analogue inputs feed an AD conversion stage, drawn with two inputs, the output of which is a two-channel L/R digital signal (though the two-channel digital paths are shown by a single line with a little diagonal slash across it with a "L/R" label to indicate composite signal paths on the same drawn line). The L/R path continues to the FX processing block and then to the digital output drivers and the input to the two-channel DAC, after which the analogue outputs appear separately again.)

[ken long]

The SSL has no Midi, so that really is a deal breaker.

Do you mean the SSL 18? It does have MIDI, albeit on a breakout.

Thank you so much for pointing that out, I just looked for Midi sockets! OK, it's back on the list, I like the idea of having something in my studio that has SSL written on it, it may even make people think I’m serious about what I do, after all, buying Behringer is a bit "hobbyist" isn’t it?
Unless something is obvious (like reverb quality) I tend to get a bit confused.

I've been eyeing up the SSL myself. Been waiting for inserts on an interface. Had them on my Apogee. Bit unsure why the price is so low though. The Alpha expander (which can do the interface thing its own right minus the pres) is even cheaper.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Hugh, I'm still investigating this, I’ve ordered a balanced jack socket to two jacks splitter which hasn’t arrived yet, I will try it.

Good idea... as long as it isn't really a stereo to dual-mono splitter..

I downloaded the manual...

Another good idea! Should have happened when you ordered the thing...

... the schematic looks like the inputs are summed into mono to the main processor...

No it doesn't — look again! (And it's a block diagram, actually, which is different to a schematic, strictly speaking).

The L/R marks indicate stereo paths through the entire structure. There is no mono summing...

...and if there were internal mono summing Lexicon wouldn't have provided this clear instruction:

..so I can't see how feeding both inputs would make any difference?

Just because you don't understand doesn't make it untrue!

Some cheaper reverbs sum to mono before feeding the reverb processor. The better ones process in stereo. The PCM91 is the latter type.

You can learn or you can argue... your choice, but my patience is wearing thin.

As for my MixWizzard, of course silly me, I should have realised the the pad button had a dual function as a line selector labelled in writing so small I need a microscope to read it, I mean, that's pretty common practice isn’t it?

It's common practice to have a mic/line selector switch, and its common practice to read the manual... especially when something doesn't behave as you expect...

The fundamental problem, as I see it, is that your knowledge and experience is no where near the level you assume or project. Assume less, learn more, my young Jedi....

[Hugh Robjohns]

...I just looked for Midi sockets!

...yet didn't see!

Proves my point again!

Assumed it would use 5pin DIN sockets, but didn't actually read the rear panel labelling, didn't read the marketing blurb, didn't consult the manual.

Basically, zero effort in research, leapt instantly to a false conclusion, and then proclaimed its unsuitability on the forum with full confidence as if you know what you're talking about...

There is a theme here...

Sorry if I'm being harsh, but I'm trying to help.

[SafeandSound Mastering]

Feed it dual mono from outside as the manual states. It needs a signal on each leg (channel) and despite being identical will likely process each one differently in DSP and spit out differently processed L/R signals as part of the stereo algorhythm's intended pseudo stereo reverb space.

Pan outputs hard left and right.

Interested to know if you getting verb from both outputs when you tested it ? If you had both outputs wired up.

In a studio to do it by the book you would parallel whatever is being sent using a parallel on the patch bay or use 2 independent auxes.

I have never had a pro hardware Lexicon just the Alex and Reflex and it is unclear if they are true stereo, being more for home studios. The pro units, as would be expected really are more professionally appointed.

Hope it sounds nice in the end. I am a fan of Lexicon always have been.

[Arpangel]

The fundamental problem, as I see it, is that your knowledge and experience is no where near the level you assume or project. Assume less, learn more, my young Jedi....

I've never claimed to be an "engineer" and yes, my knowledge is minimal, and patchy, I consider myself to be a musician, and have to do this stiff out of necessity, I don’t enjoy it as an activity in it's own right.
Also, some equipment just works, and is very flexible and tolerant, I have other FX units that work and sound fine with a mono input for instance.
This reminds me of long ago when buying hi-fi, I always thought Linn decks sounded bad, but apparently it was my fault, someone said, you have to put them on a flimsy wooden table, and have the right flooring down, it's not the fault of Linn if you can’t at least get that right. I said I balanced my Michell on the top of a my partners head once and it sounded fine.
I'm not mentioning anything to do with buying anything anymore here, it's not worth the aggravation.

[SafeandSound Mastering]

The agro of doing something correctly ? I got it wrong, was corrected and will carry it in my head, no one knows everything in every given moment. Any detail can be missed when you do not have full info and are just meaning to be helpful.

Pro and semi pro hardware can be different, not always but at times.

Sort your reverb inputs and let us know how it sounds. It is hard to imagine it sounding anything but very good, a classy piece.

Used one briefly in a studio when training up maybe it was a PCM 90, but it was secondary to the 480L hardware which we could not wait to have a go on.

[Arpangel]

The agro of doing something correctly ? I got it wrong, was corrected and will carry it in my head, no one knows everything in every given moment. Any detail can be missed when you do not have full info and are just meaning to be helpful.

Pro and semi pro hardware can be different, not always but at times.

Sort your reverb inputs and let us know how it sounds. It is hard to imagine it sounding anything but very good, a classy piece.

Used one briefly in a studio when training up maybe it was a PCM 90, but it was secondary to the 480L hardware which we could not wait to have a go on.

Not everything a manufacturer makes becomes a "classic' and we’ve come a long way since the 91 came out. Pedals these days are incredible, I have a UAD Golden, which is superb, something that really does sound like a classic Lexicon, without all the unreliability of my old 224, I loved that thing, but reliability was terrible. The sound of the 91 is miles away from that 224, the PCM70 has "that vibe" but the later units started to loose it, that very dense, modulated sound, that just hangs in the air around an instrument, like a gorgeous halo. This 91 isn’t "bad" but it can't do that, it sounds clean, generic, a bit bland.
I'm waiting for the splitter to try both inputs, I bought this because I really did think it had that family sound, so far, it hasn’t showed me that, I can only go with what I hear, with my ears. Sometimes there's a lot of diplomacy going on on forums, for obvious reasons, but AFAIC I haven’t said anything to offend anyone, I'm giving it a chance, I'm waiting for the splitter, we'll see how that turns out.

[ken long]

we’ve come a long way since the 91 came out. Pedals these days are incredible, I have a UAD Golden, which is superb, something that really does sound like a classic Lexicon, without all the unreliability of my old 224, I loved that thing, but reliability was terrible. The sound of the 91 is miles away from that 224, the PCM70 has "that vibe" but the later units started to loose it, that very dense, modulated sound, that just hangs in the air around an instrument, like a gorgeous halo. This 91 isn’t "bad" but it can't do that, it sounds clean, generic, a bit bland.

tbh, I second the native Lexicon stuff. I know you said you said you're hardware only in this case, but the plugins sound the same without some of the noise. I do still use the 60 but not as much as I used to (also needs a recap!).

[Bob Bickerton]

I’ve been following this thread and at the risk of being seen as a fence sitter, I’d just like to say, I’d be disappointed, Tony, if you stopped seeking advice on new/alternative gear around here. I only contribute to the conversation myself if I have direct experience of the said piece of gear, but I generally follow what’s being said with interest and occasional amusement.

But I also acknowledge Hugh’s frustration at reading some of your opinions and assessments of gear you’re exploring, which are often subjective in nature rather than objective. I share Hugh’s concern that information in these forums should be accurate so that all readers, both now and in the future, contributors and those who aren’t, get the ‘facts’. That’s really important, otherwise we delve into the world of misinformation, a place I find repugnant.

As for myself, I suppose I have a foot in both camps. I try to technically understand what’s going on, but I try to not let the technology to get in the way of the creative process and have a bad habit of skimming over manuals (though to my credit I did read the my first Logic manual cover to cover in 1996 before switching it on). I see it as a Yin-Yang process! Long may it continue!

Oh and the UAD 224 pedal is the bees knees, totally agree with that.

Bob

[Hugh Robjohns]

The sound of the 91 is miles away from that 224...

I'm not sure I go quite that far, but it is a different animal further along the evolutionary tree, certainly.

To to clarify, I have no stake in whether you like or dislike the sound of the PCM91. It matters not because its a purely subjective opinion, in your case weighted by preferences which might not be entirely mainstream.

I have hardware rack reverbs here from Lexicon, Yamaha, Sony and TC Electronic and they each have their own distinct characters. So I get that the PCM91 — excellent though it is — might not scratch a specific itch.

However, what does matter, to me at least, is that you form the opinions you share here from a place of knowledge and experience based on using the product appropriately — which means making sure you understand how to use it as the manufacturer intended.

...AFAIC I haven’t said anything to offend anyone

Not offended.... but frustrated that you skipped the basics, leapt to false conclusions, and then argued about it when I was trying to help.

I will be interested to hear your findings with the correct input configuration. I experimented last night and my PCM90 sounds distinctly weird with only one input in most (but not all) programs.

[MOF]

As for myself, I suppose I have a foot in both camps. I try to technically understand what’s going on, but I try to not let the technology to get in the way of the creative process and have a bad habit of skimming over manuals (though to my credit I did read the my first Logic manual cover to cover in 1996 before switching it on). I see it as a Yin-Yang process! Long may it continue!

I don’t remember using left and right inputs on the 91, so almost certainly I too skipped reading the manual. If I had I might not have sold it!!!

[Hugh Robjohns]

[Arpangel]

CPC are a great company, but their shipping isn’t the fastest, sometimes.
Still waiting for that female jack splitter, if it doesn’t arrive soon I can feel a bodge coming on, I ordered a ready made one simply because of my eyesight I hate soldering.
Hugh is undoubtably right, about reading manuals, which I rarely do, but, "I did" for some reason, immediately downloaded the manual and I read it! Because I didn’t want to not be able to program it right away, I saw the routing diagram, that looked like the two inputs went into one stream, so I thought that meant it was a summed mono input, so I was wrong.
I used it yesterday, and still no inspiration, I'm hoping Hugh's findings about using one input are the same for my unit.

[Arpangel]

Splitter arrived today
Will check it out later!

[Martin Walker]

Splitter arrived today
Will check it out later!

Well, your soldering iron can now remain safely in the cupboard.

[Arpangel]

Splitter arrived today
Will check it out later!

Well, your soldering iron can now remain safely in the cupboard.

Most of my other FX have a warning "use left input for mono" I haven’t owned any Lexicon stuff that had this, and they’ve all worked fine, my 224, and my LXP1.
When I had my Eventide H3000 I did feed both inputs with a splitter, I wasn’t going to leave any stone unturned with that thing.

[James Perrett]

When I had my Eventide H3000 I did feed both inputs with a splitter, I wasn’t going to leave any stone unturned with that thing.

Yes, if you only feed one channel in to the H3000 you only get one channel out - as I found out when I first got mine.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Most of my other FX have a warning "use left input for mono"

Not so much a 'warning' as helpful information that the input sockets are half-normalled..

I haven’t owned any Lexicon stuff that had this, and they’ve all worked fine, my 224, and my LXP1.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results....

Thats why manufacturers write manuals
...

[forumuser840717]

Most of my other FX have a warning "use left input for mono"

Not so much a 'warning' as helpful information that the input sockets are half-normalled..

I haven’t owned any Lexicon stuff that had this, and they’ve all worked fine, my 224, and my LXP1.

Past performance is no guarantee of future results....

Thats why manufacturers write manuals
...

And write handy hints like "use left input for mono" on their products. Or don't.

[Arpangel]

When I had my Eventide H3000 I did feed both inputs with a splitter, I wasn’t going to leave any stone unturned with that thing.

Yes, if you only feed one channel in to the H3000 you only get one channel out - as I found out when I first got mine.

Yes James, also, on my PCM91 only one meter is active, been busy, but will report back later.