Which organs were used in these vintage recordings?...

[ajay_m]

Ooh that ferrofish module looks very neat! real drawbars.... £345 from Thomann. Dammit. Luckily I'm on holiday for a week but I must say that is a tempting thing to get.... I love real hardware, it's inspirational.

[amanise]

Ooh that ferrofish module looks very neat! real drawbars.... £345 from Thomann. Dammit. Luckily I'm on holiday for a week but I must say that is a tempting thing to get.... I love real hardware, it's inspirational.

I think if you fish around a bit you might find something with pedals too. Iveseen those as well. I have no idea how they work though. Not like a guitar at all.

[Arpangel]

Or the one in GarageBand is not too shabby if you have a Mac or iPad.

Hilarious Sam, I was going to mention that one, incredible as a freebie, really really good.

[Zukan]

Cool article on the Hammond:
https://www.soundonsound.com/people/history-hammond

I used to use Hammonds in dem days but I did stumble upon a clonish type of company - Voce, and I decided to buy their V4 which turned out to be quite usable.

[Kayvon]

DX7 is a very strong contender, I agree, and it fits with so much of the keyboard work in other Sade tracks.

I used a Juno 60 to play the specific part in a covers band back in the previous century...

You mean a millennium ago?

I can talk I haven't played keys in public for over 8 years. But that's just what a conscientious musician I am

I used to use Hammonds in dem days but I did stumble upon a clonish type of company - Voce, and I decided to buy their V4 which turned out to be quite usable.

I had a Voce V5+ I used to put through a Roland Fantom's Leslie MFX. It was alright. Just alright though. It didn't do loudness robbing very well if at all. And to be fair most of the Hammond sounds I really love are off records so the whole tape + desk + mic + preamp thing was missing.

Is anyone into Yamaha Electones? I have a three manual D85 that has a CS synth esque wiggly aftertouch manual. Nice phase coherency between notes and a roly poly rotating speaker. Spatialized speaker electronic chorus has never worked though. The synth part is like the missing link between the Yamaha SY and CS series. I have an SY-1 too, gnarly GX-1 filter which so I'm told is exactly the same internally as the Korg 700's.

[tacitus]

I have the Yamaha two-manual supposedly portable combo organ (YC25?). It hasn’t been out for a while but with the help of a Sonorous Leslie-alike I got it to make some fairly Hammond-y sounds, though I had to shift up or down an octave to get the right footages. I’ll have to get it out again soon …

[The Elf]

The humble Reface YC is actually one the best hardware Hammond simulations I've owned - far better than it has any right to be. I kinda miss mine...

[Kayvon]

The YC was the pick of the Reface bunch for me, lots of fun Probably befits (rather outstrips) my level of organ playing.

I always fancied picking up a Yamaha SK-20 after enjoying the PASS (Pulse Analog Synthesis System) engine that is used in some of the Electones like D-85. It's nice and soft though prob a good bit of that will be the old speakers and aged caps in mine. As I mentioned they got something right about the phase between notes. I wonder how strictly they are equally tempered? I can't remember whether octaves were phase locked.

[Kayvon]

I can't remember whether octaves were phase locked.

Thinking about it they must've been. n I guess phase locked between harmonics too? I haven't seen a deep dive into how that's all arranged. Perhaps I'll move the vintage synths that are leant up against my D-85 and do some investigating.

[Synthman4]

Which organ was used in this one?

That Sade track isn't a real organ. It's a synth — possibly a Roland Juno 6 (or 60 or 106 — they all sound the same).... although almost any poly synth could make the same sound when used with a good stereo chorus.

But it's obviously emulating a hammond-esque sound and you can get something very close with a Hammond plugin.

Interesting. I think the Hammond Plugin is definitely my best bet.

[Folderol]

Some of the older organs used 12 separate LC oscillators for the top octave, then simple dividers and filters for the lower octaves.
FWIW
You can easily turn a square wave into a triangle one, and with careful choice of resistors and back-to-back (germanium) diodes you get a reasonable approximation of a sine wave.

[Synthman4]

How do you edit these posts these days?

Click on the three dots button top right of each post, select edit... but you can only edit your own posts, only only within 45 minutes of posting.

What about them Vox continentals? Do you get the same sounds on those?

No, the Vox is a much brighter, harsher and 'fizzier' kind of tone, usually with heavy vibrato rather than a Leslie effect.

Cool. Thanks for that info Hugh.

[Synthman4]

That Sade track isn't a real organ. It's a synth — possibly a Roland Juno 6 (or 60 or 106 — they all sound the same)....

Rare bit of trolling by you Hugh? (; Did you intend to trigger the synth pedants into replying?? The 6/60 & 106 sound similar but, well, nah I’ll leave it there

So my first instinct might’ve said MKS-70 / JX-10 / JX-8P but they wouldn’t have been released for another couple years so what other options do we have? Wiki has Diamond Life recording as October 1983

It sounds a little sharp and neat for a Juno 6/60 (released 1982) though my experiences with them have been minimum 16 year old ones. The chorus is a little too subtle also.

Doing some googling it seems Power Plant studio would’ve had a Hammond B3 and there’s some interviews with Mike Pela talking about Emulator II too. DX-7 was obviously in use by Andrew Hale and I read he’d also put layered DX-7s through a Leslie.

So I’ve got real B3, Emulator II, DX-7 and then the maybe Juno 6/60 known to have been used with Sade.

Any strong guesses?

The tuning doesn’t sound Hammond to me so yes I guess synth as well. The DX-7 can do very good Hammond patches n surely there would’ve been clean Emulator II patches. The chorusing sounds very natural but would a miked Leslie with synth sound that clean?

I think I’m going with DX-7. The percussion attacks sound pretty tight so that kinda suggests to me not chorusing over everything, detuned DX-7 organ patch then?

Damn, that chorus beats quite like a Leslie in places. I’m definitely not thinking Juno chorus. I’m not accustomed to the real scanner chorus/vibrato and differentiating it from the Leslie.

Hugh what do you think?

Actually I think you could be well right about Andrew Hale using layered DX7 organ sounds there through a Leslie or something.
If you watch some of the early live SADE performances, Andrew only uses a big Rhodes piano and a DX7 on top.

[James Perrett]

Some of the older organs used 12 separate LC oscillators for the top octave, then simple dividers and filters for the lower octaves.

That's how a Vox Continental worked but the Hammonds that we are talking about here used tonewheels to generate the sound.

[Kayvon]

Some of the older organs used 12 separate LC oscillators for the top octave, then simple dividers and filters for the lower octaves.
FWIW
You can easily turn a square wave into a triangle one, and with careful choice of resistors and back-to-back (germanium) diodes you get a reasonable approximation of a sine wave.

Interesting thing about some of that type of wave shaping is that phases get rotated so for instance you might get a sawtooth out of a triangle but it's 90 degrees advanced. So when layered you get a specific reinforcement/attenuation of different harmonics.

Apols Synthman4 for the continued thread hijack but I just found a post about the Yamaha PASS organ synthesis method:

...PASS models have polyphonic VCFs. They also use time multiplexed phase accumulator oscillators rather than a top octave synthesizer, the main advantage here being that each note of each manual is detuned a little bit. So octaves and coupled manuals (i.e. layered sounds) aren't phase locked the way they are in purely divide-down organs (or in the SK series). It's a lot closer to a very advanced, very complicated hybrid synthesizer with digital oscillators and analog filters...

Must be the nice bit of detuning I like in the D-85 rather than the phase locking I imagined. Too many synths in the way to play it regularly/easily n my memory is at the best of times

[Synthman4]

Looks like Mick Talbot is playing a Yamaha DX7 with a Hammond underneath - I'm fairly sure that you can download a DX7 Vsti for free these days. I very much like the old GSI Organized Trio for Hammond sounds - the newer version is called VB3 and can be found at

https://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=44

There is also the free CollaB3 VSTi but the Leslie effect on that is terrible so you need to feed it through a decent Leslie VST.

So would you recommend the waterfall plug in for the decent Leslie plugin then?!

[Synthman4]

Would the new VB3 work with the waterfall plug in Leslie effect?

[James Perrett]

Would the new VB3 work with the waterfall plug in Leslie effect?

You probably don't need the Waterfall plug-in with VB3 (it includes a Leslie effect) but you do need it with CollaB3 (which sounds good as an organ but has a really terrible Leslie effect). Of course, if you already own Waterfall then there is nothing to stop you using it with VB3 but I wouldn't buy it before trying the one built-in to VB3 first.

[Synthman4]

Would the new VB3 work with the waterfall plug in Leslie effect?

You probably don't need the Waterfall plug-in with VB3 (it includes a Leslie effect) but you do need it with CollaB3 (which sounds good as an organ but has a really terrible Leslie effect). Of course, if you already own Waterfall then there is nothing to stop you using it with VB3 but I wouldn't buy it before trying the one built-in to VB3 first.

So do I just use the Leslie effect in the VB3 while I’m using it with CollaB3 and not the Leslie effect in the Callab3? I’m a bit confused, Mr Parrott

[amanise]

Would the new VB3 work with the waterfall plug in Leslie effect?

You probably don't need the Waterfall plug-in with VB3 (it includes a Leslie effect) but you do need it with CollaB3 (which sounds good as an organ but has a really terrible Leslie effect). Of course, if you already own Waterfall then there is nothing to stop you using it with VB3 but I wouldn't buy it before trying the one built-in to VB3 first.

So do I just use the Leslie effect in the VB3 while I’m using it with CollaB3 and not the Leslie effect in the Callab3? I’m a bit confused, Mr Parrott

Is the part in question going to be down in the mix - or right up and one of the main features of the piece?

[James Perrett]

So do I just use the Leslie effect in the VB3 while I’m using it with CollaB3 and not the Leslie effect in the Callab3? I’m a bit confused, Mr Parrott

Sorry - I've probably confused things by suggesting two different VST instruments. You wouldn't use VB3 and CollaB3 together. You would use one or the other.

I'm a great fan of trying free virtual instruments first before spending money on alternatives which is why I suggested CollaB3. However, CollaB3 doesn't have a great Leslie effect so you would need to use something like Waterfall to give you a decent Leslie.

If you don't like the sound of CollaB3 then you could try VB3 as an alternative. As I mentioned in my first post, I've not used the current version of VB3 as I have an older version which works well enough for me but I would assume that the current version is better than the one that I have. VB3 has a Leslie effect built-in but you can't use it with other instruments - only with VB3.

[Synthman4]

So do I just use the Leslie effect in the VB3 while I’m using it with CollaB3 and not the Leslie effect in the Callab3? I’m a bit confused, Mr Parrott

Sorry - I've probably confused things by suggesting two different VST instruments. You wouldn't use VB3 and CollaB3 together. You would use one or the other.

I'm a great fan of trying free virtual instruments first before spending money on alternatives which is why I suggested CollaB3. However, CollaB3 doesn't have a great Leslie effect so you would need to use something like Waterfall to give you a decent Leslie.

If you don't like the sound of CollaB3 then you could try VB3 as an alternative. As I mentioned in my first post, I've not used the current version of VB3 as I have an older version which works well enough for me but I would assume that the current version is better than the one that I have. VB3 has a Leslie effect built-in but you can't use it with other instruments - only with VB3.

I don’t want to sound like a snob but I don’t like the idea of using free software. Is this
Ferrofish thing better?

[amanise]

So do I just use the Leslie effect in the VB3 while I’m using it with CollaB3 and not the Leslie effect in the Callab3? I’m a bit confused, Mr Parrott

Sorry - I've probably confused things by suggesting two different VST instruments. You wouldn't use VB3 and CollaB3 together. You would use one or the other.

I'm a great fan of trying free virtual instruments first before spending money on alternatives which is why I suggested CollaB3. However, CollaB3 doesn't have a great Leslie effect so you would need to use something like Waterfall to give you a decent Leslie.

If you don't like the sound of CollaB3 then you could try VB3 as an alternative. As I mentioned in my first post, I've not used the current version of VB3 as I have an older version which works well enough for me but I would assume that the current version is better than the one that I have. VB3 has a Leslie effect built-in but you can't use it with other instruments - only with VB3.

I don’t want to sound like a snob but I don’t like the idea of using free software. Is this
Ferrofish thing better?

That was me wasn't it - I have to say I've never used one as the CollaB3 has been more than enough for me and 300 odd Euros is too much for my purposes. James is right - I think it was him who pointed me at the CollaB3 some time ago now - the Leslie in it is not the best. So that's why I forked out for the Waterfall plug. For me, that's worth the outlay because it's the thing most people recognize about the sound. I'm no Hammond player, strictly MIDI, so it's all kept down in the mix and use for 'feel' anyway. If it were the main thing, I'd get someone who knew how to play a proper one to do it. There's so many Hammond-ish things you can't come close to if you don't know the instrument.

You can use the Waterfall on just about anything if so inclined. The Ferrofish looks like it's designed for people of a certain age who can't resist draw stops, but its cute.

Waterfall is licensed with iLok - so there are people who don't like that - but not me. Overall, it's a pretty low risk experiment. Worked out for me anyway.

[Synthman4]

I just want to know what is the most sophisticated/ expensive/professional Hammond plug in/samples on the market.
I do own hauptwerk. Maybe there’s a Hammond sample for that.

[Sam Spoons]

I don’t want to sound like a snob but I don’t like the idea of using free software.