Church PA Operation

[Mach 109]

I have a lifetime of experience in the broadcasting and audio field and have a question related to the non-professional PA environment: operating a church PA system in a traditional church setting with people who do not understand audio, do not know how to use microphones and so on.

So often, such PA systems seem to be running on the edge of ringing while not being not loud enough and such issues which professional users / operators would find ways around. But when you are dealing with people in this environment, what can be done to make sure that you can get the best sound without expecting them to have to take any interest in the use of the equipment, if that makes any sense?

I'm interested in any solutions that you have tried which get around this problem as far as possible; equipment, microphones, techniques - whatever worked for you? Is there any information that you can point me to on the Internet where these things are addressed and not just firms advertising their installations?

Sorry for the poorly-worded question.

Yours frustratedly...

[ef37a]

Welcome Mach 109.

Don't take this the wrong way but, you have been spoilt! There are many members here who have to deal with the Great British (?) Public on matters audio technical, and PA is one that gives constant headaches.

Contributions from TGBP will range from the total bloody nuisance know it all/fiddler to those who will not touch a single knob with a disinfected bargepole.

I was involved in PA a few decades ago in a small way. Some indoors, AGMs, Amdrams (NEVER "work with children" animals I could cope with) Some outdoor stuff, county shows, point to points etc. Bit of 100V factory installation. Easy that, just some rough calculations then donkey work.

The equipment has changed beyond recognition of course but not the laws of physics as they apply to sound. All I can suggest is a system based on line source speakers to attempt to control radiation patterns and good quality directional mics. If you could get everyone involved to wear a headset with a NC mic that would make life MUCH easier!

Money is of course almost always limited else you would just employ an on site sound tech!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

...what can be done to make sure that you can get the best sound without expecting them to have to take any interest in the use of the equipment, if that makes any sense?

I think you've answered your own question. It makes no sense.

Running a PA of any kind is a technically demanding role. It requires a combination of knowledge, and skill, and they both require an interest in the subject.

Without that interest no one will learn the knowledge or develop the skills... consequently it makes no sense to involve anyone disinterested in running the PA.

[ef37a]

...what can be done to make sure that you can get the best sound without expecting them to have to take any interest in the use of the equipment, if that makes any sense?

I think you've answered your own question. It makes no sense.

Running a PA of any kind is a technically demanding role. It requires a combination of knowledge, and skill, and they both require an interest in the subject.

Without that interest no one will learn the knowledge or develop the skills... consequently it makes no sense to involve anyone disinterested in running the PA.

Ha! Ha"! And there's me thinking I am sure to get a bllking for being so pessimistic! No, you cannot really win. One big problem is always that many people simple don't "Project". You can't really amplify what you don't have a lot of.

Dave.

[Sam Spoons]

It is not just Churches that have the problem*, and the problem is rarely with the equipment or the way it is set up. Usually the Pastor/Vicar etc are fine and problems come down to other lay speakers who should not be allowed near a lectern, they mumble, stand back from the mic as soon as they hear their own voice, speak extremely quietly, did I say mumble... As Dave says the laws of physics haven't changed, better more directional supercardioid mics will help until the speaker turns away or stands to one side when they will perform worse than a cardioid so if you can't get the speakers to speak clearly into the microphone you are, basically, stuffed.

* Junior school choirs at local council events, amateur choirs, speakers at weddings, local Scout district parades, speakers at corporate events or even media events.

[AlecSp]

For me, church PA is well summarised as being the not very capable operating mediocre equipment to amplify generally poor sources. Harsh, but generally accurate.

Physics will always win.

Move from lavs to headset mics is one of the few equipment investments worth making - not that it need cost more than £30 or so per unit. If using lav mics, this is the single biggest improvement in GBF that I see in churches. You may have resistance, but need to persuade the talent that it's worth the results.

My other strong piece of advice to the amateur church op is that, if they're starting to get ringing from a quiet presenter, turn them down a bit. Most just try and squeak every bit of level, while making things more unintelligible. Don't try and beat physics.

Expect to need to encourage, equip, and train your volunteers on an ongoing basis. Appreciate what they do, but don't expect that much high quality.

[Drew Stephenson]

As suggested above, this is fundamentally a people problem, not technical problem.
A the microphone end, a little bit of flattery will go a long way. Suggest to the speaker that you, and everyone else, is really interested in what they have to say. So offer a bit of mic-coaching so that they can get their message across. Just the basics like staying on mic, not waving the microphone hand around whilst speaking, not holding the mic down at their waist, being prepared to hear their voice as a stranger etc. etc. etc.
Five minutes work will make a lot of difference.

At the desk end, I think it's really a case of putting the word out for volunteers who have an interest. Let them know that what they learn will be transferrable to other environments (music, stage, corporate), and again, a little bit of flattery (you'll be really making a difference to how well the service works and the appeal of the church etc. etc.) to give them a bit of pride in what they're doing.

[tacitus]

Spot on, Drew! I once saw a comment that pro wind players use about 15 times as much air as rabbits playing 3rd clari. The difference between mumblers and projectors is probably similar, and I wouldn’t put it past being in proportion to trying to amplify a mike in a line level input.

Our church has a bizarre stone block short readers use at the lectern, so we taller ones are faced with a gooseneck mike almost impossible to line up. Plus our mike’s prone to crackling (cheapness? Previous abuse?).

Luckily the church and congregation are small, so for me it’s just a question of speaking up. I do think a little tuition would be a big help, and simple ways of conveying the idea of mike and speaker patterns in terms of user actions. Me, I work better more or less sight-reading, if there aren’t loads of unpronounceable biblical names. Instead of modernising “thees and thous”, I’d be happier if they modernised the people- and place-names. Most of our readers are older and so vision is a palpable factor, too.

If I get a chance to work on this at all, I’d be very interested to see if particular approaches to training work better over more situations. But I don’t imagine we’ll solve it easily at this stage.

I’m definitely a headset convert. My favourite tool for phone calls, going right back to my first Plantronic in 1980-something.

[alexis]

...I once saw a comment that pro wind players use about 15 times as much air as rabbits playing 3rd clari ...

Sorry, after reading that I can't unsee in my mind the bunny in the symphony trying to hide his ears in a Rastafarian head piece so he's not discovered.

[ef37a]

No help to the OP but if I was asked to fit a PA system in a church (or another 'untreatable" building) I would go for multiple small, local speakers.

This is because digital delay is so cheap now and very decent class D amplifiers also. The whole thing could be under digital control*. Has anybody ever developed a proximity AVC system? The Theramin technology seems to me to be a good starting point?

*I would leave THAT chalice to some other bod to design!

Dave.

[Mach 109]

Just a brief post to say a big "thank you" to everyone who took the time to contribute. I have noted down many of your suggestions because they are so helpful. I suspect that there is a lot of experience out there about installing and operating PAs in churches but it does not seem that it has been collected into some neat packaged form.

Lots to ponder...

[Arpangel]

I was at a local church, a friend was performing in the band, the PA sound was awful, terrible, speakers and mic's in the wrong places, no attention at all was paid to gain staging, things were either too quiet, or too loud, with audible distortion, terrible. When I asked my friend about it he said "oh, don’t worry, they know what they’re doing" I was speechless.
I got the impression that the sound just wasn’t in any way a priority, but why spend money on decent equipment if you don’t intend to learn it and get the most out of it?

[Mach 109]

Churches these days can be an odd place to practice good sound. On the one hand, some have (almost) industry standard equipment and on the other hand, the operators are often untrained or reluctant volunteers some of which do think that they know what they are doing. They can be the hardest...

I have tried on a couple of occasions to gently introduce things to improve the situation and the response seems to have often been indifference - or worse, an active working against the advice.

It is the way it is, sadly. I've been working at it now for about 30 years and not solved the problem.

[Arpangel]

When I was a chorister none of this was deemed necessary, and IMO it's an extension of a trend that I disliked very much at the time, happy-clappy guitars and doing away with the High Altar, it's been down hill ever since, also, the extra money the church needs to buy all this stuff, it's all extra costs that most can't afford anyway, still maybe they can raise the money now they’ve also taken out the pews and replaced them with plastic chairs, so they can turn the space into commercial realty, like one I know that runs a nursery and Post Office in what was once the Nave.

"Jesus drove out all those buying and selling, overturned the tables of money changers, and the seats of those selling doves."

But hey, we don’t want to start getting all biblical, do we? And as for those Ten Commandments, they could well do with an update.
As you guessed, I’m an arch traditionalist when it cones to all matters like this.

[ef37a]

When I was a chorister none of this was deemed necessary, and IMO it's an extension of a trend that I disliked very much at the time, happy-clappy guitars and doing away with the High Altar, it's been down hill ever since, also, the extra money the church needs to buy all this stuff, it's all extra costs that most can't afford anyway, still maybe they can raise the money now they’ve also taken out the pews and replaced them with plastic chairs, so they can turn the space into commercial realty, like one I know that runs a nursery and Post Office in what was once the Nave.

"Jesus drove out all those buying and selling, overturned the tables of money changers, and the seats of those selling doves."

But hey, we don’t want to start getting all biblical, do we? And as for those Ten Commandments, they could well do with an update.

I do agree with you that people should be able to make themselves heard, else don't be a vicar!

But when I was involved with PA the bands had not really arrived then. We were more concerned with a touch of "Sound Reinforcement" of people who were "unaccustomed..." as it were. Plus a few places loops systems for us muttons.

These days I would have thought a few £100 for a PA system could be better spent on the (shameful fact) of the food bank?

Dave.

[Arpangel]

When I was a chorister none of this was deemed necessary, and IMO it's an extension of a trend that I disliked very much at the time, happy-clappy guitars and doing away with the High Altar, it's been down hill ever since, also, the extra money the church needs to buy all this stuff, it's all extra costs that most can't afford anyway, still maybe they can raise the money now they’ve also taken out the pews and replaced them with plastic chairs, so they can turn the space into commercial realty, like one I know that runs a nursery and Post Office in what was once the Nave.

"Jesus drove out all those buying and selling, overturned the tables of money changers, and the seats of those selling doves."

But hey, we don’t want to start getting all biblical, do we? And as for those Ten Commandments, they could well do with an update.

I do agree with you that people should be able to make themselves heard, else don't be a vicar!

But when I was involved with PA the bands had not really arrived then. We were more concerned with a touch of "Sound Reinforcement" of people who were "unaccustomed..." as it were. Plus a few places loops systems for us muttons.

These days I would have thought a few £100 for a PA system could be better spent on the (shameful fact) of the food bank?

Dave.

Yes, the vicar in my church was a great orator, and could throw his voice way beyond the back row of the Nave, I cant think at any time, that people had difficulty hearing him, and, our church was big, like a small cathedral.

[Sam Spoons]

All the happy clappy stuff is there because that's what people want, and that in turn generates bums on seats and thus money on the collection plate. Traditional Churches are not getting those bums on pews.

[tacitus]

All too true. I’m a traditionalist by inclination and I love a good evensong. The last one I sang at was performed by singers from two large Churches as well as from our own small one, but as with all evening services nowadays, hardly anybody else came.

I’m not keen on our present arrangement with nearly all the music cut out for what is effectively bible study. I’ve read the book and tbh, it doesn’t end very well. I’d rather put mystery in than try to take it out. We used to have small worship band (no point in it being bigger than the congregation!) and I enjoyed playing bass in it. Quite exhilarating sometimes as the leader refused to rehearse.

Our church PA was financed by a bequest which couldn’t have been used for charity. I really ought to have a look at it so the poor benefactor provides something useful. At least it will work reasonably with some mike adjustments. Even better if we could take out our pews and get a little more space where we need it. Not plastic chairs though, please!

[Hugh Robjohns]

When I was a chorister none of this was deemed necessary...

But that was in a different century when the average Brit had a very different relationship with religion and religious services.

The world has changed and continues to change, and the church needs to change with it to remain relevant and to offer people something they value in the context of modern life. Fire and brimstone and the wrath of God sermons aren't going to work today. Community support and involvement is where it needs to be. Somewhere that's fun to be...

The reality is if that means hosting mother and baby groups, food banks, and more contemporary musical interactions, among other things, that's what needs to be done.

Without that kind of modernisation, churches will close and either be demolished and the land sold off, or converted to expensive feature homes...

[Arpangel]

The world has changed and continues to change, and the church needs to change with it to remain relevant

I believe the exact opposite, if people can't bend to the religion, then it isn’t for them, plus, the church has no relevance to modern society, society has abandoned the fundamental principals. We have free will, given to us by God, all he can do is show is the path, it's up to us if we walk it or not, the rules are already there, but some seem to make them up as they go along, and bend and mould them to suite there own ends, if we all stuck to the fundamentals, our lives would be a lot different, and that goes for all religions, and all Gods, whatever it is you believe in, the goals, are more or less the same, but few stay faithful to the path.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I believe the exact opposite...

I am not surprised!

Your reluctance to evolve has been noted here often before... But that's not a criticism, just an observation.

[Sam Spoons]

A close friend is Pastor of the church he's attended since childhood, they are a small independent church and tread the middle ground when it comes to worship. They have a band and a good PA system, video screens and use zoom for those who can't physically attend on a Sunday but the emphasis is on community so they have mother and toddler groups, women's groups, bible study, youth groups etc. They can accommodate about 120 and are usually at capacity on a Sunday morning.

[Arpangel]

I believe the exact opposite...

I am not surprised!

But that's not a criticism, just an observation.

I understand, I was on the edge of studying theology and philosophy at university with a view to entering the clergy, if God were to give me the opportunity, I'd go one step further, and enter a monastery. It's the only way that I can see, for me to live in this world, and I wish I hadn’t been distracted from that path, but here I am now.

[Arpangel]

After a conversation, I’m not a PA man, but talking about expenses, and church finances, I did offer to help at my friends church, I know I don't have a track record at this, but I know I could do a better job, so what’s to loose? I do know where to place speakers, I know about gain structure, mic placement, I "could help" also, why buy stuff, I have the long cables that they need, stands and other bits and bobs, I think sound just isn’t a priority, but why buy the gear if you don’t intend to get the best out of it?

[tacitus]

Yes, you may find a longer mike cable makes everything work better. Churches are quite up to moving everything round and if it looks roughly the same as when installed, be surprised it doesn’t with quite like it did before. Possibly thinking they’ve inadvertently mashed a mike and that accounts for it.

Our PA mixer and amps are locked up. I pretty sure an hour setting up all the levels with a re-positioned mike any height of reader can use comfortably would be, as the deplorable saying goes, “night and day” …