Bodhran Trouble

[Shanks]

Hey folks, my first post, so go easy.
I'm trying to remix some recordings I did in my bedroom back in the 90s. 4 people crammed into a tiny space with not great mics and terrible separation.
To be fair, I am getting some ok result, but the thing that's letting down the recordings is the Bodhran (Irish Drum). Back then it was a cheap one and the bloody things sounds crap. No matter what I do with EQ, you can't polish a turd.

It occurred to me last night, what about these drum replacement tools? I had a quick play, I tried Slate Trigger, but with a Bodhran, it's not just one hit, it's triplets and multiple hits and the left hand is on the skin adjusting the tension, so there's quite a lot of complexity. Trigger didn't seem to be able to get that level of detail.
I also tried the demo of Massey DRT. This looked promising, but the free version won't let you use samples, and I don't want to waste $100 on something I don't even know is going to work.

Does anyone have any experience of this issue, and am I expecting miracles from drum replacement tools? My thinking was I can use better recordings of a better Bodhran from the same player recorded another time, at least keeping some continuity. Otherwise, I could buy a sample library, but it's more about if it's possible or not or if anyone has any other suggestions I could look at. Thanks.

[ajay_m]

1. Time is money
2. A problem you can solve by throwing money at it is a problem solved.

Hence, tempting to suggest. Buy a better Bodhran. Assuming the cod Celtic designs (for the tourists) aren't necessary, a plain one that's reasonably good ought not to cost the earth, I *assume* £100 would do the trick.

[Moroccomoose]

Hi Shanks,

I would say if you are really forced down the MIDI route, then capturing the articulations of a bodhran is going to be tricky. I would suggest that a bodhran is far more expressive than say a regular snare drum with a stick (And even they can be very expressive) so trying to trigger a sample from track might lead to quite disappointing results. Eg, it might sound a little 'machine gun' as an identical sample is triggered over and over. But it does depend on the sample pack you decide to use.

If MIDI is your weapon of choice, I would say it is very likely that would capture the 'hits', but you would have to spend a lot of time forensically fiddling with samples, velocity and articulations at each hit to get any kind of realism. Not a small job, but not impossible either.

The other thing you will have to contend with is getting the ambience correct, so they sound like they are in the same room, so careful reverb selection and application will be necessary.

One thing you might want to try is using the online AI tools to un-mix your original audio and isolate the bodhran. This could help on 2 fronts.

1) It might give you a track you can use in your mix with no need for MIDI and samples. You might be able to EQ in a way that is more helpful and use it to support the existing tracks.

2)it will give you a cleaner more dynamic audio track to make triggering the sampler more precise (The replacer basically looks at the transient and triggers the sample from that. If the transient is lost in the mud of the spill from the other instruments the triggering threshold will be difficult to optimize).

Others with more experience than me will likely chime in too!

Good luck!

Stu.

[ManFromGlass]

If your standards start off low then some of the bodhran hits will be replaceable.
Samples will never replace the complexity of the instrument, as mentioned.
If you plan to mix the fake bodhran track low then maybe samples could fool the ear enough.
Question -
Is the bodhran recorded on it’s own track?
Can the sound of the bodhran also be heard on the other tracks?

[Shanks]

1. Time is money
2. A problem you can solve by throwing money at it is a problem solved.

Hence, tempting to suggest. Buy a better Bodhran. Assuming the cod Celtic designs (for the tourists) aren't necessary, a plain one that's reasonably good ought not to cost the earth, I *assume* £100 would do the trick.

It's a remix project for an album, so rerecording parts wouldn't be appropriate. However, if the original performance could be retained with a new sound, I think that could be an acceptable compromise.

[Shanks]

Hi Shanks,

I would say if you are really forced down the MIDI route, then capturing the articulations of a bodhran is going to be tricky. I would suggest that a bodhran is far more expressive than say a regular snare drum with a stick (And even they can be very expressive) so trying to trigger a sample from track might lead to quite disappointing results. Eg, it might sound a little 'machine gun' as an identical sample is triggered over and over. But it does depend on the sample pack you decide to use.

If MIDI is your weapon of choice, I would say it is very likely that would capture the 'hits', but you would have to spend a lot of time forensically fiddling with samples, velocity and articulations at each hit to get any kind of realism. Not a small job, but not impossible either.

The other thing you will have to contend with is getting the ambience correct, so they sound like they are in the same room, so careful reverb selection and application will be necessary.

One thing you might want to try is using the online AI tools to un-mix your original audio and isolate the bodhran. This could help on 2 fronts.

1) It might give you a track you can use in your mix with no need for MIDI and samples. You might be able to EQ in a way that is more helpful and use it to support the existing tracks.

2)it will give you a cleaner more dynamic audio track to make triggering the sampler more precise (The replacer basically looks at the transient and triggers the sample from that. If the transient is lost in the mud of the spill from the other instruments the triggering threshold will be difficult to optimize).

Others with more experience than me will likely chime in too!

Good luck!

Stu.

Thanks, Stu and good call to clean the track with AI, there is a lot of bleed.
My thinking was this might be too much of an ask due to the complix nature of a Bodhran but never having used these trigger tools I thought it might be worth exploring. I can can cut up another Bodhran track that's a better instrument/recording from the same player a year or more later which would give me a good selection of sounds and dynamics but I've no idea how the software uses it and knows what to trigger.

[Shanks]

If your standards start off low then some of the bodhran hits will be replaceable.
Samples will never replace the complexity of the instrument, as mentioned.
If you plan to mix the fake bodhran track low then maybe samples could fool the ear enough.
Question -
Is the bodhran recorded on it’s own track?
Can the sound of the bodhran also be heard on the other tracks?

Yes, I guess the standards are already very low. It was recorded on its own track, there is bleed to the other tracks but being a drum I can pretty much EQ it out of those.

[ajay_m]

I wouldn't be too sanguine about the idea of being able to do sound replacement because, with a conventional drumkit, the hits are reasonably isolated from each other so sample replacement works reasonably well. But with a bodhran you have very rapid articulations and these run together and the head of the drum is never quiescent between hits. Hence any replacement would probably sound unnatural, unless possibly you can blend it in with the original sound so as just to sharpen up the attacks or something. Though I may just be unduly pessimistic here, of course, never having tried to do anything like this myself.

[shufflebeat]

Mmm… this post is *suspiciously well timed to draw attention to an article on the front page of the SoS site. I suspect this is a collaboration between the SoS Central Bureau and the shadowy figures behind the globalist Big Bodhran industrial complex.

Anyway, I’ll play along:

https://www.soundonsound.com/news/crow- ... nch-vaults

…seems ideal for your needs (what’s the chances?)

I know a few bodhr-ingers, ranging from the master-percussionist who can hold his own with the best classical players to those of the, “thump it til everyone else goes quiet” school. Some of those will be easy (and a joy) to replace, others will be nigh on impossible to replicate.

* Lest there be any doubt (it’s your first post so it would be unfair to assume you know) I’m having a laugh.

[Bob Bickerton]

How much bleed is there onto the bodhran track? Maybe post an example of the track up here?

You might be able to get a better sound through a combination of dynamic EQ, compression (LA3A) and pitch shifting (-oct). Perhaps use an expander to attenuate bleed elements first.

Bob

[BJG145]

I doubt if drum replacement tools could improve it.

It’s not like it will be able to trigger different samples based on the timbre of the original. If you’re lucky, you might capture most of the beats with some slight variation in volume. A bit of doubling might help tighten it up and improve the sound though maybe.

[Arpangel]

My thinking was I can use better recordings of a better Bodhran from the same player recorded another time, at least keeping some continuity.

I think you’ve hit the nail firmly on the head there, it's a win win situation, better Bodhran, great playing, no faffing about with samples etc, less hassle for you, better outtcome.

[Shanks]

Thanks for all the replies and advice, guys. I think the consensus is that drum replacement software isn't going to be able to cut it with the complexities of the Bodhran, but perhaps to use it sparingly on the main beat, to add a little more flavour so to speak. I'll have a play around.
It's a shame, the rest of the tracks are sounding ok, then this sore thumb kicks in.
I did get a bit of improvement using Smart EQ. I was wondering if Sooth EQ might be worth investing in? At the end of the day though, the Bodhran in question was just a bad drum, the skin on it sounds plastic to me!

[Bob Bickerton]

As I noted above there’s more you can potentially do than just EQ. Could you post a sample of a section of the bodhran track (with bleed from other instruments) so I can hear it?

Using a drum trigger just now and then won’t work and if anything will simply draw attention to the poor bodhran.

Bob

[ManFromGlass]

Perhaps this is too late but Crow Hill have a free bodhran instrument. It is a collection of patterns where complexity can be dialed in.
It has monsterous bottom end and sounds great on it’s own. So probably needs some eq to fit in a track well.
I haven’t tested to see if it follows the tempo of my DAW. If it does that would be very useful

[shufflebeat]

That’s the one I linked to but, on reflection I agree with others that replacing the existing recording would be problematic.

I have had some success with the SSL drumstrip plug-in on bodhran tweakage.

https://store.solidstatelogic.com/plug- ... -drumstrip