A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

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A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by James Perrett »

I saw this post today from Robin Davey from The Hoax (amongst others). I thought it was a very realistic description of how the business works. You can find the original at

https://www.facebook.com/robindavey/pos ... xN1QB4fWBl


I see so much misinformation flying around about the music industry so here’s some perspective from my 35 years of doing it:

1. Recorded music has never made the majority of artists money, 95% of record deals were unsuccessful. The label only paid the artist around $1 of each record sold, and it was only that $1 per record that went to pay off your advance, the label kept all the other income. If your advance was $100,000 you had to sell at least 100,000 records to be taken seriously as an artist by the label. Streaming is just the same problem different structure.

2. If you are so upset by Spotify, take your music off the service. Yes the payouts suck - if you are not successful - but guess what, successful artists do get paid, but the percentage of artist that make money on streaming is probably the same percent who found success with old school record deals, 3-5%.

3. Venues, festivals, and anyone else that uses online metrics as a basis to booking acts, you are causing your own demise. Bands and managers use services to inflate their plays, follower counts etc etc. sometimes these are bots and sometimes they are more sophisticated and playlist integrated that use real accounts to inflate, but what they are not doing is creating the band actual fans. Even when an artists plays are driven by official Spotify playlists, this only inflates play numbers and engagement can be very fragmented, it doesn’t create fans, and certainly doesn’t sell tickets.

4. If you want to grow outside your local scene you are going to lose money as an artist for a good few years. Pre-covid it was a little less hard, but now that is the reality. All these bands you see seemingly arriving on the scene to great success, have a ton of financial backing in one way or another. But it was always this way. Stevie Ray Vaughan had millionaire backing and was hugely in debt until the tail end of his career. My band The Hoax most significant rise was when we signed to Warner Brothers, we personally made about $1000 each from the deal but when we left the label we had a $170,000 debt from advances, tour support and various other costs. If you want to compete, even on a lower level, you have to invest.

5. We as artists need to stop putting the blame of a dwindling live scene on apathetic audiences, poor industry payouts, and lack of government support, and artists need to look at themselves as to why people are not coming out to shows. If bands are not entertaining enough, audiences won’t want to buy tickets. It’s called a show for a reason, this doesn’t mean you need pyrotechnics and a stage full of backup dancers, but it doesn’t mean you have to look at yourself from an audience perspective. If you think that people should dig your show because the music really means something to you, guess what, nobody cares. They want it to mean something to them. Trudging through tired blues rock riffs or unimaginative lyrics are going to result in a lack of connectivity with an audience who want to be entertained and feel involved. They care when the story is relevant to them. Play the same set night after night and people are going to see one show and be done, play for the moment and vary what you do depending on the room, the night, the mood of people, and audiences will want to be a part of that moment night after night. They don’t want to hear the record as it was played, they want to hear why the songs are relevant to them, in the room that night, they want to feel alive and be transported from their daily routine for a couple of hours, they want to smile, laugh, sing along, cry. They are not going to do this unless you understand what they want and why they are there, not be wrapped up and blinkered by what you want and your own self importance.

6. Quit chasing fame, it means zero these days. If you are an artist or musician and think you are special or deserve special treatment because of it, this just spells out entitlement. Leave your ego at the door. Sorry to break it to you but you are no more special than anyone else, and to be honest you are probably paid a lot less than most of the audience members in the room, respect that, because they are the ones who are enabling you to chase your dream.

7. If you are unhappy on tour, don’t go on tour, it’s not going to get any better, this is probably not the life for you.

8. You are only as successful as the amount of tickets you can sell to your show. There are success stories of people building online followings that translate to ticket sales, but they are rare and specialized cases. And if you don’t have the experience of putting on a live show, they’ll come once and never again.

9. Word of mouth is the best and most effective form of advertising.

10. There are no short cuts to a long lasting career in music, it takes time building a fan base one person at a time. Even if you have great reviews, even if you have decent radio play, even if you have millions of streams, it doesn’t mean anything until someone sees you play and leaves the gig wanting to tell all their friends about the amazing experience they had that evening.

11. If you haven’t achieved the level of success that you desire, you are not good enough yet, if you strive to be better with every gig, every record, every song, you will continue inching yourself towards your goals. If you ever think you have done enough and the fault in your lack of success lies elsewhere, then you have failed.

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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Arpangel »

Realising you’re a failure is a success in it's own right, you’ll be free, to do whatever you like, not what people expect of you, that applies to music, and life in general.
I consider myself a failure only in what others expect from me, those things have never concerned me or attracted me, it's a short life, don’t be pushed around.
I have an advantage in that every time I play, for myself or an audience, it’ll be different, I've never understood why anyone would want to repeat anything, I genuinely do not.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by TheWay »

That Hoax post is nigh on right.

Two corrections though:
-Play your best songs at every gig. i.e., don't vary your set just for the sake of one person who might have seen you before. The same set on a different night is a different performance anyway.

- Don't rely on word of mouth
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Tufty »

Arpangel wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:19 pm I've never understood why anyone would want to repeat anything, I genuinely do not.

Could you explain what you mean?
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Wonks »

Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:36 pm
Arpangel wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:19 pm I've never understood why anyone would want to repeat anything, I genuinely do not.

Could you explain what you mean?

He could, but then in a week's time, he'll tell you the opposite. Just take all Arpangel's comments as weird, and you'll be OK.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Tufty »

Wonks wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 1:10 pm
Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:36 pm
Arpangel wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:19 pm I've never understood why anyone would want to repeat anything, I genuinely do not.

Could you explain what you mean?

He could, but then in a week's time, he'll tell you the opposite. Just take all Arpangel's comments as weird, and you'll be OK.

Well I think he has a point. I mean, I never understood why scientists were so keen on the concept of reproducible results in their experiments.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by BJG145 »

Some good tips, thanks James. :thumbup:
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by shayne.oneill »

That $1 per record (but you first must pay off the advance) is horrible but true. I've had friends in succesful bands that had made their labels literally millions but where still saddled with huge debts upon leaving the label. Worse, if the album isn't initially successful, they will stop selling it AND still insist you repay the advance. In any other industry this would have had regulators kicking in doors, but the music industry was so damn corrupt, I'm convinced politicans where getting paid off , because some of this was blatantly illegal but nobody ever got busted for it.

None the less, just because the industry was corrupt then, doesnt mean we should tolerate the tech-bro replacement for it being corrupt now. Spotify deserves to collapse, its proven itself malevolent and incredibly harmful to smaller musicians at a time when widescale closure of venues and younger crowds simply not going to gigs anymore has put the only alternative to album income, touring, deeply at risk.

I know with my old band we where making around $500 a fortnight on itunes and amazon. Hardly enough to quit the day-job but combined with at-gig CD sales, it was enough to at least pay for studio time and a few other niceties. The moment we went up on spotify that income vanished overnight. And that was before spotify started enshitifying their playlists with AI crap and mass produced elevator muzak.

The thing is, what are the alternatives. I dont know. But we sure as hell need one. Not just musicians, but the punters too. The music fan is poorly served by this situation as well. Even if we dont care about our own careers (I am under no illusions, at 50 my rock-star window of opportunity has long passed), we owe it to the youngsters starting out in the industry to get this right.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Arpangel »

Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:36 pm
Arpangel wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:19 pm I've never understood why anyone would want to repeat anything, I genuinely do not.

Could you explain what you mean?

I can.
My music is improvised, when I play it’s always a completely different feel, and piece, I could write it down, but choose not to.
Some of it gets recorded, so you can actually hear it again if you want to.
But if I play something again, pieces that are stored in my head, it feels pointless, like a totally empty and fruitless experience.
I have to play something new to actually enjoy playing it, plus, I have the exact opposite of some people, unless I have an audience, or I’m being recorded, I find it very difficult to play, that red light has to be on so that I can give it 100% attention.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Drew Stephenson »

shayne.oneill wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 4:36 am The thing is, what are the alternatives. I dont know. But we sure as hell need one. Not just musicians, but the punters too. The music fan is poorly served by this situation as well. Even if we dont care about our own careers (I am under no illusions, at 50 my rock-star window of opportunity has long passed), we owe it to the youngsters starting out in the industry to get this right.

There are, I think, plenty of better alternatives out there. Whether that's streaming services like Tidal or Qubuz or sales-focused platforms like Bandcamp. The challenge is overcoming the inertia of Spotify's user-base. Unless and until a big, and I mean big, collection of major artists* move their catalogues off then the fans won't move.
They might think about it, but then they'll look at their playlists, and their connections and (especially if they're on the free tier) it'll all get put into the 'too difficult' box.

* And obviously it's these artists who are the few actually making money so they're not incentivised to mess the status quo.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Tufty »

Arpangel wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:07 am
Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:36 pm
Arpangel wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:19 pm I've never understood why anyone would want to repeat anything, I genuinely do not.

Could you explain what you mean?

I can.
My music is improvised, when I play it’s always a completely different feel, and piece, I could write it down, but choose not to.
Some of it gets recorded, so you can actually hear it again if you want to.
But if I play something again, pieces that are stored in my head, it feels pointless, like a totally empty and fruitless experience.
I have to play something new to actually enjoy playing it, plus, I have the exact opposite of some people, unless I have an audience, or I’m being recorded, I find it very difficult to play, that red light has to be on so that I can give it 100% attention.

That's great. I mean, it's music. There is no right or wrong. You don't have to understand why anyone does this or that do you? There are always going to be things that some Humans do that other Humans don't do. Trying to understand why people do things we don't do seems a bit silly.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Arpangel »

Tufty wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 10:47 am
Arpangel wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 8:07 am
Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:36 pm
Arpangel wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:19 pm I've never understood why anyone would want to repeat anything, I genuinely do not.

Could you explain what you mean?

I can.
My music is improvised, when I play it’s always a completely different feel, and piece, I could write it down, but choose not to.
Some of it gets recorded, so you can actually hear it again if you want to.
But if I play something again, pieces that are stored in my head, it feels pointless, like a totally empty and fruitless experience.
I have to play something new to actually enjoy playing it, plus, I have the exact opposite of some people, unless I have an audience, or I’m being recorded, I find it very difficult to play, that red light has to be on so that I can give it 100% attention.

That's great. I mean, it's music. There is no right or wrong. You don't have to understand why anyone does this or that do you? There are always going to be things that some Humans do that other Humans don't do. Trying to understand why people do things we don't do seems a bit silly.

Understanding why wouldn’t make any difference to anything anyway! I don’t know why I do some things, I just like doing them, some things are unfathomable, others aren’t, like, I'm hungry, I know I need to eat, I need to go to the loo, I'm cold, I’m hot, we know how to address these things, apart from these basic things in life, the rest will never be answered.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by merlyn »

Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 1:20 pm Well I think he has a point. I mean, I never understood why scientists were so keen on the concept of reproducible results in their experiments.

That's a shame. Stay well away from science.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by James Perrett »

Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 1:20 pm I never understood why scientists were so keen on the concept of reproducible results in their experiments.

If you can't reproduce the results then it probably means that something is wrong. We had this issue with some of our sub's measurements which showed different water depths on different dives at what was supposed to be the same position. It turned out that we had a long standing problem with one of our attitude sensors which was throwing off the navigation.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Tufty »

merlyn wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 1:01 pm
Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 1:20 pm Well I think he has a point. I mean, I never understood why scientists were so keen on the concept of reproducible results in their experiments.

That's a shame. Stay well away from science.

Note to self: 'Avoid any attempts at sarcasm whatsoever'.

I don't this forum is gonna be for me tbh. Mods please delete me, Thanks.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by merlyn »

On the topic of notes to self Robin Davey's post above does seem like partly a note to self. Trying to get paid playing music you have written yourself is eating your cake and having it. Going that route does have an element of being a star. This section could be going into romantic fantasy:

Robin Davey wrote:... They want it to mean something to them. Trudging through tired blues rock riffs or unimaginative lyrics are going to result in a lack of connectivity with an audience who want to be entertained and feel involved. They care when the story is relevant to them. Play the same set night after night and people are going to see one show and be done, play for the moment and vary what you do depending on the room, the night, the mood of people, and audiences will want to be a part of that moment night after night. They don’t want to hear the record as it was played, they want to hear why the songs are relevant to them, in the room that night, they want to feel alive and be transported from their daily routine for a couple of hours, they want to smile, laugh, sing along, cry. They are not going to do this unless you understand what they want and why they are there, not be wrapped up and blinkered by what you want and your own self importance. ...

Some do, some don't. Some of the audience do want to hear the record. He is talking about something real -- actually playing music, rather than knocking out an over-rehearsed set for money. But that doesn't necessarily make money.

Personally I take whatever work I can get.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by RichardT »

Tufty wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 4:11 pm
merlyn wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 1:01 pm
Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 1:20 pm Well I think he has a point. I mean, I never understood why scientists were so keen on the concept of reproducible results in their experiments.

That's a shame. Stay well away from science.

Note to self: 'Avoid any attempts at sarcasm whatsoever'.

I don't this forum is gonna be for me tbh. Mods please delete me, Thanks.

Sarcasm is very welcome - people here just don't know you yet. Some new people (not you) do post dumb things, so it's hard to know. I hope you'll stay.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by BJG145 »

RichardT wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 6:17 pmSome new people (not you) do post dumb things

Some old people post dumb things as well. I should know, I'm one of them. :beamup:
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Arpangel »

Tufty wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 4:11 pm
merlyn wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 1:01 pm
Tufty wrote: Thu Aug 14, 2025 1:20 pm Well I think he has a point. I mean, I never understood why scientists were so keen on the concept of reproducible results in their experiments.

That's a shame. Stay well away from science.

Note to self: 'Avoid any attempts at sarcasm whatsoever'.

I don't this forum is gonna be for me tbh. Mods please delete me, Thanks.

Come back Tufty! I shout, in the rain, holding my glass, the sound of a distant sax, a police siren.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by BJG145 »

I hope you've still got your towel on.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by OneWorld »

shayne.oneill wrote: Fri Aug 15, 2025 4:36 am That $1 per record (but you first must pay off the advance) is horrible but true. I've had friends in succesful bands that had made their labels literally millions but where still saddled with huge debts upon leaving the label. Worse, if the album isn't initially successful, they will stop selling it AND still insist you repay the advance. In any other industry this would have had regulators kicking in doors, but the music industry was so damn corrupt, I'm convinced politicans where getting paid off , because some of this was blatantly illegal but nobody ever got busted for it.

None the less, just because the industry was corrupt then, doesnt mean we should tolerate the tech-bro replacement for it being corrupt now. Spotify deserves to collapse, its proven itself malevolent and incredibly harmful to smaller musicians at a time when widescale closure of venues and younger crowds simply not going to gigs anymore has put the only alternative to album income, touring, deeply at risk.

I know with my old band we where making around $500 a fortnight on itunes and amazon. Hardly enough to quit the day-job but combined with at-gig CD sales, it was enough to at least pay for studio time and a few other niceties. The moment we went up on spotify that income vanished overnight. And that was before spotify started enshitifying their playlists with AI crap and mass produced elevator muzak.

The thing is, what are the alternatives. I dont know. But we sure as hell need one. Not just musicians, but the punters too. The music fan is poorly served by this situation as well. Even if we dont care about our own careers (I am under no illusions, at 50 my rock-star window of opportunity has long passed), we owe it to the youngsters starting out in the industry to get this right.

"enshitifying"

This is the 3rd time I have come across this word in as many weeks and it seems it is an acknowledged phenomena. I came across the term in one instance where I was reading an article on encryption and the point of the article being that our trusted friends in the world of the internet the big 4 or 5 is it, were mopping up our data with gay abandon and despite their claims, that data is made available to a lot more 'entities' than they tell us about, and in the case of at least one large search engine, 'enshitification' is rife. The writer of the article, an expert working for a large it security company advised, if you want some element of privacy, get off the more commonly used search engine, browsers, get a good VPN (choose wisely he said) use end to end encrypted email. The article made for some very interesting reading. On a more general point, it seems the music industry is even more subject to the demands of capitalism over ability (as a writer/player) although it has to be said, I am a big fan of Black Pink, I have been for years, and happy to see them gaining a world wide audience, and I say that because I think they are slick and despite being a packaged girl band, they are exceptionally good at what they do, their choreography is exemplary, and they have good tunes.

My point being there is room for new talent, but it comes packaged and will we ever see another Bob Dylan, Donovan, John Martyn, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones et al I doubt it. I think there is probably more success to be had as a classical musician, where image is subsumed by ability, where the musician is more of an artisan, try getting hold of a decent plumber, or cellist, they're like hen's teeth and they're certainly not having to schlep from pub to pub each night trying to turn a dollar. They know they are good.

And when I say 'success' I mean making enough money to bring home the bacon and put a roof over your head, not fame and fortune, though of course that would be the favoured option.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Philbo King »

Hunter Thompsons take on the music industry remains as true as ever.

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by Drew Stephenson »

Enshittification is a term coined by Cory Doctorow to describe the three stage process that companies, particularly tech ones, seem to go through.
Initially they are focused on providing value for their customers, then they start shafting their end users in order to serve their business customers, then finally they shaft everyone in order to extract the maximum value for themselves - regardless of any long-term consequences.
A lot of this behaviour is broadly driven by market expectations of ever increasing quarterly profits and shareholder returns even as the market saturates and normal levers of growth are exhausted.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by amanise »

So it would appear we have consensus that it's all a crock or worsening shit. Glad we got that straight.
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Re: A Realistic View of the Music Biz?

Post by BigRedX »

amanise wrote: Sun Aug 17, 2025 7:08 pm So it would appear we have consensus that it's all a crock or worsening shit. Glad we got that straight.

I don't think so. As the article quoted in the OP suggests, it has always been extremely difficult to make a living out of music. It's just the some of the ways in which it is difficult have changed (and some have remained the same).

It's never been easier or cheaper to make a great sounding recording available to the public. When I first started making music you'd need studio time and then have your recording pressed on vinyl. Even if you cut every corner Desperate Bicycles style that was going to cost getting on for £200 for a few hundred copies of a 7" single, which was a lot of money back in the late 70s. Compare that with today when everyone potentially has a recording studio for free in their computer and you can release your album via an aggregator service for less than $20.

When my first band were offered four and a half minutes on a vinyl compilation in 1980 it was a struggle for four teenagers to scrape together the £50 we needed for a day in a very ordinary 4-track studio and the master tape for the finished recording. Even selling our free copies of the resulting double EP didn't quite recoup our costs. When a friend's band released their single 3 years later despite having big name patronage that covered much of the recording expenses they still had to make all sorts of compromises to afford to press 500 copies and by the time they had their records delivered the days of almost guaranteed successful indie release were over. Although they managed to secure a distribution deal the distributor went bust 6 months later taking all their stock with them.

IME gigging is easier and more financial rewarding these days. In the 70s and 80s the bands I was in rarely played outside of our home town because we simply couldn't afford the transportation costs and if we did have some form of band transport it was massively unreliable and spent as much time being repaired as it did on the road.

The last two bands I've been in have been financially self-sufficient in that the money we earn from playing gigs, selling records, CDs and T-shirts and performance royalties completely covers all our band related out-goings. For over 30 years before that any musical project I was involved in cost me a significant proportion of my disposable income (and in the days when I didn't have very much disposable income, all of it).

What hasn't changed is getting more than your immediate friends and family to notice that you exist musically. In the past if you had a record deal it was in the record company's interests to give you a big promotional push. Now that anyone can make their music available to the public, the noise to signal ratio is considerably higher, and the traditional means of publicising music have become much less effective. How much importance does getting your record on national radio even have now? And does it matter apart to our egos if we get a good review in the "press" anymore? So while the jump from music being an expensive hobby to being self-sufficient is far easier, making it any further is just as difficult as it always was. Unfortunately for those who want to do music full-time being self-sufficient doesn't also pay the non-musical bills. Also everyone seems to have realised that songwriting is where the long-term musical income is. Look at any successful (and probably lots of unsuccessful) song(s) from the last 20 years and see just how many people appear on the list of songwriting credits!

I think part of the problem is that too many musicians still think that just because they can play a bit and put together a recording that sounds close in quality to their "heroes" that is all all that is required and because access to those things is easier than ever there is an exaggeration of entitlement. The truth is that the non-musical aspects of the "music business" are now more important than ever in getting an audience, simply because the rest of it is so easy to do.

If you want to write and record music for anyone in the world to be able to hear it's never been easier or cheaper. Want to make an actual living doing it? It's just a hard as it has always been.
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