New project -- Berlin Chiptune -- journal and audio samples

[Ben Asaro]

I've been picking away on the setup between work calls and I must say -- this latest workflow is a dream to write on! The JV-1080 track definitely elevates the overall sound. I currently have the JV-1080 on MIDI channel 8 where it doesn't overlap with the MIDISIDs in any capacity. Bass is is on MIDI channel 1, which leaves me with channels 3-5 for SID voices. Voices 2-3 are panned to the center, and voices 4-5 and panned to the right, which is great for ornamentation and tracker effects like delay.

Taking the basic tune I wrote in LSDJ and fleshing it out on the NerdSeq is really showing off the potential of what I have here.

[Ben Asaro]

Testing is going well! May have a quick and dirty video as well if the sound came out okay.

[Ben Asaro]

Embed didn't work, so here's a direct link:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WCifFe6v9esumz8V7

[Ben Asaro]

Well, I seem to be at an impasse with this project but there IS a glimmer of hope if I can sort this out.

I’ve stated before that whenever I have tried mixing guitars and synths in the past it’s never worked out — and unfortunately the same is happening here.

I spent a good chunk of yesterday writing guitar parts for this chiptune and when I listen back objectively, they don’t add anything to the arrangement. In fact, they make it worse, in my opinion.

Having slept on it, though, I think I am beginning to understand WHY this keeps happening and maybe starting to devise a plan around it:

I think the core of the issue when it comes to modular/chiptunes mixed with guitars is that they both fill the same function, in terms of arrangement, and the tune ends up being too cluttered with too much going on at once.

The other issue is sonic: both the SIDs and guitar are very harmonically rich and end up obscuring each other in the mix.

The final issue is the fact that I feel like I’m still learning so much, and things are changing so rapidly, that I’m still discovering what this project will actually sound like.

Just before bed yesterday I tried a MUCH simpler guitar part and I THINK it worked, but … it felt boring to play and like a compromise (which it was).

I have started looking for chiptune artists that incorporate guitar to see how they do it and am hoping to gain some insights and inspiration from them. Someone out there HAS to be doing something similar to what am attempting (I refuse to think it’s THAT original).

In the end I will do what’s best for the project, of course.

Something worth noting is that every positive change for this project thus far has been a leaning towards subtraction, NOT addition. Adding what is essentially more voices and sequencers may not be the answer … or this will require a new approach, mindset, and methodology.

Back to the laboratory!

[Martin Walker]

Something worth noting is that every positive change for this project thus far has been a leaning towards subtraction, NOT addition. Adding what is essentially more voices and sequencers may not be the answer … or this will require a new approach, mindset, and methodology.

I truly sympathise Ben!

Ironically, the aspect that I'm really pleased with my most recent music track is how much 'space' I managed to have in it. The 'space between the notes' is something I've been struggling with for some time, as I too have a habit of putting too many parts/notes in.

My take on it is that if you manage to write strong individual parts then you don't need as many 'musicians' playing in your ensemble. But this in turn is tricky when you are the one recording all of those parts, one by one. When you aren't hearing the entire composition, you end up not reacting to the other parts as you would with live musicians, but instead entering track by track something that fits with what's already in the can.

Then, by the time you think the piece is finished, all those parts still seem valid, even though some may not be 'paying their way'.

Hence your your thoughts of 'a leaning towards subtraction, NOT addition.

Martin

[Ben Asaro]

Thanks, Martin!

I think my biggest issue is that I'm melody junkie AND a composition nerd, and this often gets the better of me!

My next test will be to remove the JV-1080, which takes up a LOT of space by any definition available, and leverage the incredible amount of SID voices at my disposal.

I will also be reevaluating my guitar tone and see if something less biting (and further back on the soundstage) won't create space for the rather gnarly SID waveforms.

Finally, I will be testing dual guitars vs single guitar + bass guitar.

[Ben Asaro]

It took a TON of videos until the algorithm finally kicked in and started getting me stuff closer to what I was looking for: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0AqwY ... rN9eVyiUXg

Not exactly what I am doing, of course, but dang close.

[Martin Walker]

Wow - there's some GREAT stuff there Ben!

Taking the easy way out, I clicked on 'Popular' and particularly enjoyed 'Long Live The New Fresh' (which has had 7 million views during its 7-year reign ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z5Pk4aTl8A

[Ben Asaro]

LOL, well it's obvious that I have no idea how to use YouTube.

Danimal Cannon's songwriting approach is clearly based on a ton of experimentation and trial/error and it seems (to me) to be very logical and well-considered, so I will likely be using that as my starting point: a) the songs start as riffs, which are then loosely recreated in LSDJ; b) from there he figures out where to leave holes in both the guitar parts and chip elements to create space; c) once the basic structure is down, he then experiments with the chiptune elements until he's happy with the sound.

To me that seems like a very logical way to proceed, especially if you're using some sort of tempo-sync'd recording method, like a DAW .... however, my setup doesn't really lend itself to that workflow ... though I think there's an app I can use to control Logic from my iPad, so maybe it's not a bad idea to record scratch guitars and then iterate on the arrangement without having to do with with a guitar hanging round my neck the entire time.

I think for my first experiment I shall deconstruct the arrangement I've been working on, even though that was written on LSDJ first. Theoretically, I should be able to create guitar parts and then reverse-engineer a new arrangement that will allow the guitars to breathe a bit more.

Overall, I'm very excited to give it a go!

Stylistically, the biggest difference between what I'm doing and what other guitar/chiptune hybrids are doing (Danimal Cannon, Master Boot Record) is where they are taking an instrumental heavy/modern metal/industrial approach, I'm more interested in creating fictional JRPG scores. Stylistically, I am trying to fuse Nobuo Uematu and other Final Fantasy composers like Masayoshi Soken with bands like Black Mages, Earthbound Papas, Hagane, and Unlucky Morpheus.

[Ben Asaro]

One other thing that I've discovered since I've really started digging into the SID chips: for all intents and purposes, LSDJ is a totally separate instrument from a tracker using SIDs. The types of sounds you get from LSDJ, and the way you shape them, is totally different from SID. Much of the music I hear made using SID chips is what I could classify as Synthwave or Outrun, whereas LSDJ music mostly falls into the techo/EDM/industrial side of the pond.

[resistorman]

Thanks for this thread, just wanted you to know I'm following with interest

[Ben Asaro]

Update: it looks like the app is called Logic Remote and apparently I already have it on my iPad. I must have downloaded it for some reason in the past and then never used it. I think that getting it into a DAW so I can loop the guitar parts whilst working out the chiptune bits will prove to be a major time-saver.

[Ben Asaro]

Some good news -- this new approach may work!

Wielding guitar in one hand and tracker in the other, I got about a minute of music blocked out in short order. The chord progression is simple and direct (i-VI-III-VII in Emin) with an intense alternate picking/chiptune unison lead and a soaring string section from the JV-1080. It has a definite NWOBHM vibe from the guitars with a bit more technical style, though the tempo is a restrained 110 bpm (which is the current upper limit for me to comfortably play a full minute of nonstop picked 16th notes with my now-rusty chops). I have a vague notion of where I would like the tune to go, so with luck, I should have this blocked out fairly quick.

[Ben Asaro]

Thanks for this thread, just wanted you to know I'm following with interest

Thanks! Not sure what the value add is in reading my musical genre therapy sessions, but as long as you are enjoying it, I'm glad to have you along for the ride!

[Ben Asaro]

Just conducted a quick test with Logic Remote and it works really well! It will require a bit of a rewire, but when the tune is blocked out and I'm working on the nitty gritty, this should be a huge help for finalizing the tracker elements.

[Arpangel]

Wow - there's some GREAT stuff there Ben!

Taking the easy way out, I clicked on 'Popular' and particularly enjoyed 'Long Live The New Fresh' (which has had 7 million views during its 7-year reign ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z5Pk4aTl8A

That’s an interesting track Martin, I’d even go as far to say I like it.

[Ben Asaro]

Quick play-through of the intro work in progress, https://audio.com/don-music/audio/wip-intro-v1

[Ben Asaro]

Oh snap -- HOLD THE PHONE

I just made an unexpected discovery that has potentially totally opened up the MDISID! I was under the impression from the manual that one cannot select individual waveforms when in General MIDI mode and had to scan around the GM sound set to find sounds that were a close approximation to what I wanted and then I could make small adjustments with CC commands to things like the ADSR decay. HOWEVER: that's not true! Not only can you select individual waveforms via CC commands, but you can dial in the pulse width AND apply PWM!

There is a rather large asterisk to this, however -- the NerdSeq only has 8 freely assignable CC commands per project. There may or may not be a work-around for this, which I will look into.

So, some things -- like percussion sounds -- would use up more CC slots than I have available, unfortunately; although I could design the sounds using MIDISID and then sample them, which I may end up doing for toms.

The other challenge is that a full ADSR envelope would take up more slots than I have as well, so you're basically limited to AD envelopes.

Still, this is very exciting and a real step forward.

Of course, you cannot save these changes as presets, which means that once used, those CC commands cannot be changed; however, you can use the same CC command on multiple voices, there's nothing stopping me from doing that.

I can also save a CC command by finding a GM preset that has the waveshape that I want and then alter the rest by hand, but that seems like an even longer way around the bush.

Back to the laboratory!

[Ben Asaro]

For today's post-work experiment:

My Cunning Plan is

1. Find two GM instruments: one that uses a saw wave and one that uses a pulse wave. This will give me a baseline waveform without having to expend a precious CC slot. I will use PC commands to select the base waveform.

2. Use this as my general CC command list:
A Noise
B Pulse Width
C PWM Width
D PWM Depth
E Attack
F Decay
G Filter
H Cutoff

3. Set up an otherwise blank pattern for each track that will load the "preset" during count-in.

I am hoping that this will give me customisable instruments on all 6 channels.

The other thing I need to confirm is that the CC's, which are global, are able to be changed locally on each MIDI channel. I'm fairly (80%) certain that this is the case. In other words, can I have two voices using the same CC command but have different Decay times?

I will be ecstatic if this works!

[Ben Asaro]

I may have made a very interesting discovery in my latest YT deep dive. Am waiting on a couple of things as it would require tracking down a currently hard-to-obtain piece of gear, but it may be the solution to my guitar dilemma... I feel a little foolish that this idea didn't occur to me earlier!

More details forthcoming!

[Ben Asaro]

So, (very) good news:

Each instance of CC is unique for each track! So even though there are only 8 freely assignable CC commands, they do not have to be the identical set of 8 across all tracks. I tested this by having CC-A change the decay in one voice while CC-A was selecting waveforms in another. Awesome!

Whilst I still think it would be a good idea to find a good baseline GM preset for pulse wave and sawtooth to save having to use a CC slot for that, it's still less critical now that I know I can set up a chain of 8 CC commands per voice.

I will have to test further, but I think if I stagger the CC commands to every other step, they should all transmit to the MIDISID without locking it up. I did have an issue with the unit locking up when I was testing CC commands last night, but I admit that I was being pretty reckless. It's also a very easy fix to resync the unit: just turn the A control knob to a different mode, and then back again.

[Ben Asaro]

Here we go again.

Another chord progression -- maybe this will turn into something worth keeping.

[Martin Walker]

Oh dear, your image no longer shows up in the UK Ben, as of a few days ago images hosted on imgur.com are no longer visible to UK IP addresses, nor can UK users access their imgur accounts without using a VPN, presumably due to the Online Safety Act.

In the UK we now get an error message stating 'Content not viewable in your region'

Discussion (and some alternatives) already under way on this thread:

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... hp?t=95179

[Ben Asaro]

lol yup -- I might radicalize someone through a photo of a chord progression.

Google Photos link, https://photos.app.goo.gl/YaTzRr2HE5qweRCH9

[Ben Asaro]

More importantly, I've spent the past 24 hours in a very deep guitar-to-MIDI rabbit hole. I'm quite surprised that virtually nothing has been done on that front in seemingly years and years; I suppose there isn't a market for it.

I happened on a video of someone who was (7 years ago when the video was posted) using his guitar through a Sonuus G2M midi converter > Arduino Boy > Game Boy running mGB. Most important, he was gigging with that setup so I guess that it would be pretty useable from what I saw in the video. (I prefer non-official videos where the manufacturer is putting their product in a very particular light)

A very thorough online search ensued and I was able to only find a single very used unit in upstate NY which I ordered simply because it's either that or wait until January at the earliest for retailers to restock, if ever.

While I was waiting, I figured it would be worth the $20 to try the Jam Origin MIDI Guitar app into Cubasis on my iPad to see if it's improved any since I last tried it. VERY long, frustrating story short: it "works" but is such a faff it's hardly worth it. The latency is bad if you're using it to pass MIDI, and the app has a fixed buffer size of 256. By the time the MIDI made it from MIDI Guitar to Cubasis to the MIDISID, there was a noticeable delay and the tracking is thoroughly mediocre: lots of dropped notes.

I do think it was a worthy experiment for the cost of two beers out, however.

I'm hoping that I can still use my guitar in this project and my thinking is: since just pure guitar all the time isn't going to work, if I can switch between electric guitar and MIDISID/Game Boy, that will open up a lot of performance capabilities.