Budget PA for Arts Centre

[siderealxxx]

Aloha,

I've been charged with finding an affordable PA and mixing system for our towns new arts/performing centre. I'm a studio guy and don't know much about PAs. They have an old Carlsbro one at present which is fine for very basic use but not much more.

It will be operated by the facilitators, volunteers and visiting performers (and probably me). They have expressed a desire for being able to mix on an iPad but I imagine that could be out of the budget and prone to operating complications.

I think we're talking sub £1,000 all in (PA, mixer, cables). I doubt we'll need more than 16 input channels. Ease of use will be a consideration. The venue is an old Methodist church with a very nice natural acoustic. Probably about 25m deep, 10m wide and 10m high.

I would imagine active speakers are the route to go? And an analogue desk for ease? Or a digital option? Does the iPad idea complicate matters and/or beyond the budget?

So what sort of power do we need? And brand/options for the mixer and PA in the budget (I'm guessing Behringer is a contender)? I know XLRs alone can quickly add up.

Any other considerations and recommendations welcome!

[resistorman]

I would go with a digital stagebox style mixer such as an XR 18 and a pair of active 10" speakers like the Turbosound Milan to fit in your budget. It can sit on stage without a costly snake, has all the processing you need and you can program and lock the mixer for volunteers.

[RichardT]

I know nothing about this, I would simply say that the more you can detail the requirements, the better the advice from the experts will be.

So for example, do you know what kinds of material will be performed? Do you need high volume levels? Do you need some kind of monitoring for the performers? Do you need to record stuff? Do you already have the microphones?

[siderealxxx]

I would go with a digital stagebox style mixer such as an XR 18 and a pair of active 10" speakers like the Turbosound Milan to fit in your budget. It can sit on stage without a costly snake, has all the processing you need and you can program and lock the mixer for volunteers.

That's true about the snake cost! Also the dangers with analogue is people start unplugging things and moving them around for no good reason. XR18 and Milan look good (assuming 10" is ok without a sub).

[siderealxxx]

I know nothing about this, I would simply say that the more you can detail the requirements, the better the advice from the experts will be.

So for example, do you know what kinds of material will be performed? Do you need high volume levels? Do you need some kind of monitoring for the performers? Do you need to record stuff? Do you already have the microphones?

True that...

It's an arts centre so we can assume it will be used for all kinds of things, but never massively loud (it's in a quiet residential area). Think theatre, acoustic & electric bands, playback, compèring, digital pianos, acoustic guitars, vocalists, but probably not miking drum kits!

Monitoring won't really be an option within the budget and may not be needed, but I guess these could be added later from the XR18 auxes. Recording can be handy but again not essential at this time.

They currently have one SM58 which I have loaned! It's a good point actually, will need a few more mics I imagine. Quickly adds up but there's so much on offer at affordable prices these days.

[James Perrett]

If you go for the XR18 then you should also allow for a separate Wifi access point as I understand that the one built into the mixer isn't that great.

Around here, quite a few people (including me) use the Alto TS range. They have a slightly strange top end but the 10" ones have very decent bass for their size.

However, if this is a serious arts centre then I don't think £1000 is going to be enough if they expect to attract any serious touring artists. They are going to expect at least the next level up in gear quality. I'd be exploring additional funding opportunities from your local councillors or other arts funding sources.

[siderealxxx]

If you go for the XR18 then you should also allow for a separate Wifi access point as I understand that the one built into the mixer isn't that great.

Around here, quite a few people (including me) use the Alto TS range. They have a slightly strange top end but the 10" ones have very decent bass for their size.

However, if this is a serious arts centre then I don't think £1000 is going to be enough if they expect to attract any serious touring artists. They are going to expect at least the next level up in gear quality. I'd be exploring additional funding opportunities from your local councillors or other arts funding sources.

Thanks, when you say separate Wifi access point, I'm not sure what you mean? I assume Ethernet would be better, but not sure on proximities yet.

I'll check out the Alto TS range with it's strange top end it's maybe a bit cheaper than the Milan.

It's a serious arts centre in that it's a rural grassroots community arts centre. It's more geared around local performers, artists and community engagement at this stage. It's also only just getting off the ground so lots of ground work to do. For now the budget won't extend beyond £1,000 max.

[Wonks]

Just things like decent (i.e. reliable) mic leads can cost a fair bit. Not just for mics but for connection to powered speakers etc.

You really need to find out more about the budget. If it is a real performing arts centre (rather than an occasionally repurposed village hall), then the equipment will need to be of a reasonable quality, or no one will want to perform there. £1k is nothing these days. I'd personally be looking at around £3k. The budget is what the budget is, but I'd avoid pitching it (to any committee) too low and them expecting miracles for that.

What size/shape venue is the arts centre? Stage and FOH space.

Speakers will probably want to be permanently mounted rather than stand mounted, so cable runs to them may need to be longer than normal to keep them off the floor.

You may also need some DI boxes.

[zenguitar]

I think it is important at this early stage to get together with a number of potential users and have a serious conversation.

Every one of them will have something different in mind when they say they need a PA system. Look for things that overlap across different uses. But also look for outliers that may only be needed occasionally but place greater demands on the system.

I would be looking at a core system that covers the principle uses. And then looking at how that can be supplemented to meet the needs of the more demanding uses. Perhaps with a plan to initially hire/borrow the additional gear needed and a future plan to raise funds to purchase that gear.

So an initial basic system with powered speakers, stands, digital desk, basic mics, etc. Then a plan for additional mics, subs, monitors, DI boxes and so on that can be purchased as funds allow.

Good quality stands are important, they deliver good health and safety. Maybe subsidise them by buying a drum of cable and XLRs and make up your own cables.

And think about things like cable drums. Standardise on 2 or 3 cable lengths and have a separate cable drum for each one. That keeps them all organised and in good order, and you can quickly test in batches with a cable tester. And don't forget things like safety chains, sandbags/weights for stands and other safety requirements if anything will have to be rigged.

But start off with those conversations, and ensure that everyone is aware that you all have to work to a tight budget and will need to compromise and come up with a plan to hire and/or buy additional gear in future.

Good luck.

Andy

[siderealxxx]

You can see the space here actually:

https://www.harrymottram.co.uk/2024/11/ ... c-meeting/

I can't stress enough this is a community arts centre with practically no resources, but some very dedicated individuals!

The acoustics are excellent and most of the performances will be based around performing more 'naturally'. The primary requirement of the PA is to amplify voices, stage pianos, acoustic instruments and playback above any such live instruments (drums, amps etc).

Well aware that cables need to be factored in and are disproportionally expensive by comparison to the hardware. Need to factor stands, DIs etc too.

If we have a reasonable core system we could beg/borrow/steal if needs start to outweigh resources...

[adrian_k]

Just to answer your question about a WiFi access point - if you want to mix using an iPad you need some way to connect directly to the XR18. While it has WiFi built in it’s pretty weak, especially when these things are often down at floor level. So people connect a WiFi access point to it via Ethernet and stick it on a stand at head height or above, and connect the iPad to that.

[Wonks]

Do you know what the plans are for seating? Keeping the pews? keeping the pulpit/altar? Keeping the organ (it does make the performance area rather asymmetrical)? Any plans for a raised stage area?

The good acoustics for acoustic performances might be more of a drawback for louder performances with all those large reflective wall areas. Any soft furnishings going in?

Secondary glazing might be necessary to avoid annoying the neighbours.

[AlecSp]

Good finally to have a picture of the place and an indication of what it may actually be used for.

What's actually wrong with the existing Carlsbro system? If it sounds OK, but just lacks inputs, there's nothing stopping you getting just a mixer to feed through it. Some wall brackets *safely and capably installed* would tidy up the floor area, and could be used for future upgrades.

What mics/stands/cables do you have at the moment? What do you actually need?

Is there anyone capable of operating a PA system? If not, then you're starting on what will be a journey of discovery with a lot of disappointment and frustration on the way.

You could put together a workable, but unglamorous setup for very little money. It wouldn't be lovely, but it would do a job.

For £3-5k, you could put in a new, and semi decent setup. For £10-20k, you could equip suitably to attract in more demanding talent.

BTW, don't forget lights - but that's another story...

[James Perrett]

I can't stress enough this is a community arts centre with practically no resources, but some very dedicated individuals!

That looks like exactly the sort of place that can attract funding. Around here there is currently a funding call out from the local council for projects like yours. In addition, there are often lottery grants available.

[zenguitar]

BTW, don't forget lights - but that's another story...

Don't keep us in the dark !!

Andy

[siderealxxx]

Just to answer your question about a WiFi access point - if you want to mix using an iPad you need some way to connect directly to the XR18. While it has WiFi built in it’s pretty weak, especially when these things are often down at floor level. So people connect a WiFi access point to it via Ethernet and stick it on a stand at head height or above, and connect the iPad to that.

Ah good to understand, thanks.

[siderealxxx]

Do you know what the plans are for seating? Keeping the pews? keeping the pulpit/altar? Keeping the organ (it does make the performance area rather asymmetrical)? Any plans for a raised stage area?

The good acoustics for acoustic performances might be more of a drawback for louder performances with all those large reflective wall areas. Any soft furnishings going in?

Secondary glazing might be necessary to avoid annoying the neighbours.

I think the layout will remain for the time being and no raised stage. The organ is definitely staying en situ! There are no soft furnishings at the moment but some standing baffles might be useful at some point. Won't be relying on excessive amplification which will hopefully help the acoustics and neighbours...

[siderealxxx]

Good finally to have a picture of the place and an indication of what it may actually be used for.

What's actually wrong with the existing Carlsbro system? If it sounds OK, but just lacks inputs, there's nothing stopping you getting just a mixer to feed through it. Some wall brackets *safely and capably installed* would tidy up the floor area, and could be used for future upgrades.

What mics/stands/cables do you have at the moment? What do you actually need?

Is there anyone capable of operating a PA system? If not, then you're starting on what will be a journey of discovery with a lot of disappointment and frustration on the way.

You could put together a workable, but unglamorous setup for very little money. It wouldn't be lovely, but it would do a job.

For £3-5k, you could put in a new, and semi decent setup. For £10-20k, you could equip suitably to attract in more demanding talent.

BTW, don't forget lights - but that's another story...

The Carlsbro is no use really, it's a mixer/amp combined with passive speakers. The speakers sound bearable but the mixer/amp is atrocious. Can't really salvage the speakers without an amp.

Need to consider wall/standing mounts from a flexibility/safety POV. Only 1x mic and stand at the moment! Will perhaps grab some of the Behringer hand mics and a few more stands, then some DIs.

I can set up and operate the PA initially, maintain it regularly and potentially train others for basic operation. I've been in a similar situation before and it's a challenge stopping people from unplugging and tweaking things all the time for no good reason.

They actually have some lights and they're not bad!

[siderealxxx]

I can't stress enough this is a community arts centre with practically no resources, but some very dedicated individuals!

That looks like exactly the sort of place that can attract funding. Around here there is currently a funding call out from the local council for projects like yours. In addition, there are often lottery grants available.

They have received some funding from the council but that's for outreach and programming, not equipment. They will work on this.

[resistorman]

Just to answer your question about a WiFi access point - if you want to mix using an iPad you need some way to connect directly to the XR18. While it has WiFi built in it’s pretty weak, especially when these things are often down at floor level. So people connect a WiFi access point to it via Ethernet and stick it on a stand at head height or above, and connect the iPad to that.

Ah good to understand, thanks.

True dat! Any decent router will do, you don't need anything real modern so used ones are fine. I generally use the 5ghz band.

[Martin Walker]

Just to answer your question about a WiFi access point - if you want to mix using an iPad you need some way to connect directly to the XR18. While it has WiFi built in it’s pretty weak, especially when these things are often down at floor level. So people connect a WiFi access point to it via Ethernet and stick it on a stand at head height or above, and connect the iPad to that.

Just to add a second opinion on this - for several years I volunteered at a local arts centre based in a church, ended up being FOH manager, and the most frustrating ongoing problem at gigs was...

...Wi-Fi access. We ran a bar at the rear of the church, and the WiFi regularly but randomly disconnected itself from our tablet, so we weren't able to accept card payments. When the connection went down it typically took 15-20 minutes of fiddling to get the tablet back on line, which as you can imagine was hugely stressful with a queue of people waiting for drinks who didn't come with a cash alternative.

If you're going to be using WiFi to remotely tweak PA settings from a tablet then the situation might be even worse - I've done this 'sound engineer' job as well for bands across a variety of locations, and if you lose the connection and are therefore unable to combat a bit of PA feedback then you won't be very popular with the punters or the band

Martin

[siderealxxx]

Just to add a second opinion on this - for several years I volunteered at a local arts centre based in a church, ended up being FOH manager, and the most frustrating ongoing problem at gigs was...

...Wi-Fi access. We ran a bar at the rear of the church, and the WiFi regularly but randomly disconnected itself from our tablet, so we weren't able to accept card payments. When the connection went down it typically took 15-20 minutes of fiddling to get the tablet back on line, which as you can imagine was hugely stressful with a queue of people waiting for drinks who didn't come with a cash alternative.

If you're going to be using WiFi to remotely tweak PA settings from a tablet then the situation might be even worse - I've done this 'sound engineer' job as well for bands across a variety of locations, and if you lose the connection and are therefore unable to combat a bit of PA feedback then you won't be very popular with the punters or the band

Martin

This sounds stressful already! What have I got myself in to! I must admit this is one of the reasons I'd rather run an analogue system. Also software updates and compatibility etc. It's my biggest gripe with modern equipment, it becomes unstable and obsolete :/

[RichardT]

To take up Andy's point, I'd recommend you write up a short document specifying the scope and requirements and get that agreed with everyone involved.

Then you're in a good position to get quotes and make funding applications.

[shufflebeat]

I regularly use an iPad on various digi-mixers, always on a wireless network dedicated to the mixer (minimum requirement).

If the house access point is in any way flaky then I always have a pair of Airport Express routers that combine wirelessly to form my own network which I can Cat5 to whatever desk is in use. I keep one beside the mixer and the other near the stage. Rarely an issue.

[Martin Walker]

I regularly use an iPad on various digi-mixers, always on a wireless network dedicated to the mixer (minimum requirement).

If the house access point is in any way flaky then I always have a pair of Airport Express routers that combine wirelessly to form my own network which I can Cat5 to whatever desk is in use. I keep one beside the mixer and the other near the stage. Rarely an issue.

Excellent approach Seamus - in my case, neither of the tablets for the church or the band stuff were mine, otherwise I'd have adopted a belt and braces approach too