Mics for jazz

[grahamgrant]

I am recording a jazz sextet soon for a short session where I won’t have time to try out different mics - I will need to have it ready for the band to come in and record straight away.

I’m debating mic choices for sax, double bass and vocals. I have a ut twin87 (cardiod, vintage mode), two roswell k47s and a roswell k67x to choose from for the three. Drums are sorted with ribbons on the overheads and various spot mics. Which of the three mics would you choose for which purpose? These are all new mics to me, and haven’t had much chance to try them out. The room is well treated and sounds good, with various gobos available.

Thanks in advance!

[Arpangel]

Not a good scenario to use mic's you’re not familiar with, I’d keep it simple, even a stereo pair, also depends what sound you’re going for, modern or trad.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Not familiar with the mics at all, but going purely by their homage names, I'd put the 47 on the acoustic bass, the 67 on sax and 87 on vocals... with the option to swap the 67 and 87 depending on style and sources...

And if you haven't built time into your schedule for a little experimentation and fine tuning you're building in trouble for yourself...

[twotoedsloth]

Hello all.

I would like to defend Grahamgrant, as sometimes it is just impossible to find time for a proper soundcheck.. For example, I have a Jazz 10tet (well, actually 11tet because they have added a singer) coming in to our concert hall on Wednesday, and unfortunately, the hall is booked tight with rehearsals, theory/history classes, and a noon hour concert. I'm hoping to get in right after the noon concert during the crossover, so I can at least move all the gear I'm going to need from the electroacoustic music studio to the stage.

That's way more information than you need, sorry. Just saying, Grahamgrant is going to have to make lemonade somehow. Best of luck to you, sir.

Peter

[Hugh Robjohns]

I thought this was a planned, dedicated, recording session, not a live concert in an over-booked hall?

[twotoedsloth]

Sorry if I cause offense, it was not intentional.

I was just trying to articulate that from time to time a gig/session it is impossible to do a sound check, whether on the stage of in the studio. We frequently have student ensembles in to our recording studio, and, by policy not from me, they get just two hours including sound check and set up. I always set up well before the musicians arrive, but even then, sometimes they waste upwards of 15 minutes to load in and get ready to play. This may be more prep time than Graham is going to get, but it is an example of having to squeeze ten pounds of recording into a five pound bag.

Again, sincere apologies Hugh.

Peter

[Hugh Robjohns]

No offence taken!

I hear what you're saying. We've all suffered those gigs/sessions when, for whatever reason, there's no time for proper sound-checking.

But a planned recording session? It really should be part of the plan... You know the old adage, failure to plan is planning to fail!

A great recording comes from spending time getting everything right before pressing the red button... It really does make all the difference.

[Wonks]

If the OP really does just have a minimal amount to time with the band, then it sounds like there will be insufficient time to do a good job.

Can it not be postponed until either they have more time, or maybe more funds, for a longer session?

[Sam Inglis]

My feeling is that any of those mics will probably do an acceptable job on the sax and double bass, if positioned with care. The only source that could possibly be made or broken by mic choice is the vocal. So I'd aim to at least have a backup plan in case your first choice mic for the voice doesn't sound too good.

Depending on the exact flavour of jazz, I'd also perhaps feel that spending a short amount of time comparing mics on the vocalist might be a better use of time than setting up close mics on the kit. For many jazz styles, overheads plus a bass drum mic should be fine.

[Arpangel]

My feeling is if the OP is "only" worried about what type of mic to use, Hugh has given directions on that and as someone else said, any of these mic's will do a good job, then if he’s OK about placement etc then there isn’t anything serious to worry about, I think he'll be fine.

[twotoedsloth]

All that being said...

If you have a great singer it is going to sound pretty good no matter what mic you put in front of them. I once had to record an operatic bass-baritone, and all I had was a fistful of SM57s, while the recording wasn't technically great, the singer and his agent were quite pleased with the result.

Best of luck,

Peter

[grahamgrant]

Thanks all,

To clarify: this is a short session which I am not charging for - the aim is to see how my new studio sounds, and the musicians are offering their services for free in return for some recordings. They have made it clear that they just want to come in and play, and so I need to have the room set up as best I can ready to record without doing the usual mic tests etc.

[Sam Spoons]

I think that as you are giving them something for free (the recording) that they could reasonably expect to pay for they should be prepared to put in the time they would on a paid session where they would certainly have to allow some setup time (which actually they would also be paying for). They are not 'giving you their time for free', they are accepting your offer of some free studio time. I have never heard of a studio paying musicians to come in and play in that way, AFAICT they are not 'sessions musicians' coming it to play on somebody else's session, it's their session even if they ain't paying cash for it.

That's not to say you should get ar5ey with them, quite them contrary, but I would definitely try not be intimidated into doing a half a55ed job and take at least the minimum time to get the setup right.

[Hugh Robjohns]

... the musicians are offering their services for free in return for some recordings.

You're doing yourself a disservice!

The reality here is that YOU are PAYING the BAND, not in cash but with your time, studio facilities, and recorded mixes.

If you don't value that, no one else will and your studio is doomed to failure before you even start!

They have made it clear that they just want to come in and play...

No, no, no. That's not how this works.

The stated aim is for you "to see how my new studio sounds" and you can only do that through some experimentation, trial and error. So agree the session duration, agree how many tracks you can realistically record in that time (including setup and optimisation time which may be mire than usual due to it being a new room), and agree how much time you'll spend on mixing it and when you'll deliver.

But absolutely do take the time to optimise your mic placements and choices, just as you would in any professional, paid session. If you take shortcuts and bodges you'll create the wrong impression and make it harder to be taken seriously by future clients.

[grahamgrant]

Respectfully, Hugh, I have found that musicians visiting here for the first time are quite intimidated by being in a studio environment, and getting them just to come in and record some tracks with the minimum of fuss helps them feel more relaxed in a studio environment. Many of them are very experienced live musicians but many of them have never been in a recording studio before. Having established initial rapport, they are more willing to explore mic choices etc on subsequent, paid sessions. Certainly this has worked with other musicians I have had in over the past few months as I get the studio sounding as good as possible.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Fair enough...

[Arpangel]

For a start, you have to have something to offer, something that people are prepared to pay for, otherwise, why should people use you and your studio? give me a reason. Just because you’re cheap? or free? that’s no way to market yourself.
This is a very complex situation, especially if you’re at the start of your career, you have no reputation, so you have to build it up, always go the extra mile, stay up all night solving a problem if you have to before the band arrives, get up early and make sure everything is where it should be, plus, make sure all the options are ready to go too, don’t have alternative mic's not set-up, they need to be ready plugged in and patched, have effects routings set-up, the worst thing is to mess about when people are around.
The next step is to become wanted for your sound, way of working, something special, that’s an envious position to be in, rather than just an average jobbing engineer.

[grahamgrant]

Perhaps in my enthusiasm to ask a technical question, I didn’t give enough context.

I approached the jazzers asking if they would be willing to come and help test the acoustics and setup, as the studio is not fully up and running on a commercial basis yet as I continue to tweak it until I am fully happy with it. They said yes, but are very time limited, so we only have a short session: therefore having an initial placement of mics would be beneficial, hence the original question.

To answer arpangel, in a previous life, my doctoral research was in rural enterprise in the area I am now based. Two of the primary findings were that successful enterprises were those that focused on community benefit and operated on long time lines. My intention with this facility is not short term gain but long term enrichment of musicians. What do we offer? A spectacular rural location yet only twenty minutes from an airport; a beautiful recording room with excellent acoustics and a great vibe: fabulous customer service; on site high quality accommodation.

So far, the strategy is working: everyone who has been invited in so far to help with the development of the studio environment - many of them experienced live musicians with limited studio experience - has loved the experience and booked for longer, paid, sessions in which there will be the luxury of time to perform more thorough mic shoot outs.

Thank you to all for your useful suggestions and especially James’ pragmatic suggestion to focus on trying out a secondary mic for vocals should the first choice not suit the singer’s voice. It is always useful to hear other perspectives, even when not aligned with mine, as it helps clarify my thinking and purpose. In my particular context, I am happy with the choices I have made in terms of managing the studio. However, I’m still not decided which mic to try first on which instrument .

[Eckertone]

Really interesting entry and a great discussion to digest!

All the best for your studio and the session!

Regarding mic choices, I can highly recommend dynamic mics for a session like that. I recently compared a 57 and 87 on a sax in a live session (drums, bass, gtr, sax) with everyone playing live in a big room, no gobos available. The 87 sounded a little better, but the spill on the 57 was just so much quieter that it was an easy decision.

I also highly recommend the article in the Octobre or Septembre issue of Sound on Sound about the Mulatu Astatke Ethio-Jazz-sessions. The engineer, Isabel Gracefield, had similar issues to solve!

[James Perrett]

I'm a bit late I know but, if I was going into a session blind, my take on this would be that I would much rather have a bunch of cheaper standard well known mics than anything a bit more obscure like the Roswell mics. I've even used C1000s on various jazz instruments successfully (or successfully enough to be asked back).

If you have a bunch of more obscure budget mics then you need to take time to get to know their strengths and weaknesses - if they really sounded like the mics they were supposedly modelled on then they probably wouldn't be that cheap. Having said that, they probably can do a great job on certain sources but you either need lots of experimentation time to find out which sources they work on or you need to find trustworthy people who have used those particular mics. There are plenty of mic opinions around from bedroom warriors but few from experienced engineers that can really be trusted. Cheap mics that look like expensive ones tend to be voiced to sound seductive rather than useful.

[Eckertone]

I dont think we can discard a 500€ mic as a budget option anymore. There are so many great "cheap" options available today that are far better than in the past. Same as with instruments.

[James Perrett]

I dont think we can discard a 500€ mic as a budget option anymore. There are so many great "cheap" options available today that are far better than in the past. Same as with instruments.

The SOS review of the K47 that I checked had them at £235 each and they charge more if you want matched pairs. A good mic manufacturer will make mics to tight tolerances so that any two mics of the same model can be used as a pair.

[grahamgrant]

The roswell mics are fabulous! Definitely nothing cheap or budget about them bar the price.

[Arpangel]

Perhaps in my enthusiasm to ask a technical question, I didn’t give enough context.

I approached the jazzers asking if they would be willing to come and help test the acoustics and setup, as the studio is not fully up and running on a commercial basis yet as I continue to tweak it until I am fully happy with it. They said yes, but are very time limited, so we only have a short session: therefore having an initial placement of mics would be beneficial, hence the original question.

To answer arpangel, in a previous life, my doctoral research was in rural enterprise in the area I am now based. Two of the primary findings were that successful enterprises were those that focused on community benefit and operated on long time lines. My intention with this facility is not short term gain but long term enrichment of musicians. What do we offer? A spectacular rural location yet only twenty minutes from an airport; a beautiful recording room with excellent acoustics and a great vibe: fabulous customer service; on site high quality accommodation.

So far, the strategy is working: everyone who has been invited in so far to help with the development of the studio environment - many of them experienced live musicians with limited studio experience - has loved the experience and booked for longer, paid, sessions in which there will be the luxury of time to perform more thorough mic shoot outs.

Thank you to all for your useful suggestions and especially James’ pragmatic suggestion to focus on trying out a secondary mic for vocals should the first choice not suit the singer’s voice. It is always useful to hear other perspectives, even when not aligned with mine, as it helps clarify my thinking and purpose. In my particular context, I am happy with the choices I have made in terms of managing the studio. However, I’m still not decided which mic to try first on which instrument .

I think from what you say, your intentions are good and your heart is in the right place, I wish you the very best of luck.
However, there are lots of studios that offer similar things to yours, and I still stand by my feeling that for someone to fly, and come to a remote location, it has to be more than the location that attracts them, what’s the point if you can get a similar result in your local town, or with a laptop in a garage, why spend all that money traveling?
You need an angle, something that people are willing to travel for, can you rely on your local community to give you enough business?
I’m just saying these things because I know people who own studios, that are unique in what they offer and people come because of those things.
One friend has a Bosendorfer Imperial piano, and a very large acoustically good live room, so he attracts a lot of classical people, another has a large collection of vintage electronic keyboards etc and records to analogue tape, so that’s the attraction for some, and he’s very good at getting a particular sound, just two examples.

[James Perrett]

You need an angle, something that people are willing to travel for, can you rely on your local community to give you enough business?

Maybe the ability to get on with the job without faffing around trying different mics and mic positions is the selling point. The artists just have to show up and play - just like they would at a rehearsal. The engineer shouldn't let the technicalities of recording get in the way of the music.

That's the approach I take on many sessions. However, before I reached that stage, I did quite a bit of experimentation so that I now have a good idea of what works. In addition, I tend to use mics that don't paint me into a corner with their sound.