Two violins live, outdoor

[notuno]

Hi everybody, I'm going to play at an outdoor event in a small courtyard. We are two violins. From previous experience, the sound is quite feeble without amplification.

We will have only 20min or so to setup before the event. All we have is a portable loudspeaker that has two mic inputs (one is labelled "Mic1/guitar input", the other just Mic2) and a wireless mic receiver.

Is it doable to put just one mic between the violins? In this case, would a condenser mic like the AKG C1000s do the job? (I can rent one nearby). Or would the wireless mic do? (see picture, I hope).

Edit: for some reason the images are not showing. The wireless mic just says "Wireless Microphone, Model: PORT-VHF, Frequency: 207.5 MHz, DC3V, 100mA, designed by Lotronic", no idea of what kind of mic it is.

[Drew Stephenson]

I've tweaked your links so the images show (change the 0 at the end to a 1).

Hmmm. I have one of those units. They're alright for the money but the wireless mics are very basic and designed for speech. You could give them a try in your 20 mins set-up time but I'd be prepared to go without.
The unit isn't designed to accept a typical balanced microphone output, so you'd need to factor in a mic pre-amp as well and at that point you'd be better off just hiring a different device that's designed for the job.

If you do try using the radio mics, and you don't move around a lot, then mic'ing the violins from behind (over your left shoulders) can add a bit of body without getting too screechy at the top end - which would be my concern with those mics.

[zenguitar]

I've edited the original post to add a copy of each image link with the 0 at the end replaced with 1.

However, it isn't working for me. I've cut and pasted the link address into my browser and it attempts to download the image rather than taking me to a page displaying the image.

As I am not a Dropbox user I don't have enough info to do make any further fix I'm afraid.

Andy

[notuno]

Thanks for the reply and for tweaking the links! What kind of mic does the unit accept through the jack inputs? I also have a Phillips electret mic with jack connection, probably also designed for speech. Would this be any better than the wireless mic?

[notuno]

I've edited the original post to add a copy of each image link with the 0 at the end replaced with 1.

However, it isn't working for me. I've cut and pasted the link address into my browser and it attempts to download the image rather than taking me to a page displaying the image.

As I am not a Dropbox user I don't have enough info to do make any further fix I'm afraid.

Andy

Genius, works for me! Thanks!

[Wonks]

As far as I can make out, 207.5 MHz isn't a license exempt band in the UK. I don't know if you are in the UK, but I'm pretty sure the mics are working on a frequency that needs a license.

So if in the UK, unless you go and get a licence, you could end up with a hefty fine.

The speaker really seems to be best suited for basic music playback, not as a vocal or instrument PA system.

I'd guess its a QTX 12" (or maybe 15") 100W (50W +50W, so effectively nearer 70W output) portable PA system, that costs around £180-£200. Or possibly the same unit under a different brand name. From a UK store, it should have come with mics in the UK licence free VHF band.

Datasheet for the QTX version here: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3678843.pdf

(if you aren't in the UK then you'll need to check the mic frequency is suitable for use in your country).

The manual doesn't say whether its mic inputs are for high or low impedance mics. But as one input is also for 'guitar' (though they don't say if this is electric guitar or the input from an electro-acoustic guitar with a built-in preamp). The mic inputs certainly don't provide phantom power and there are no individual mic gain controls, just a combined level control for both mics.

If this is all you have and can't borrow a better PA, then you'll have to use the radio mics (the speaker should have come with two, so I hope you have both). You'll need stands for them and they'll need to be positioned quite close to the violins.

If you only have one radio mic, then trying to mic up the performance through a not very loud speaker is going t cause you more hassle than it's worth, so I'd recommend sticking to a pure acoustic performance.

[Hugh Robjohns]

FYI, the licence-exempt VHF band in the UK is 173.7 to 175.1MHz.

Other VHF frequencies are available in the UK licensed Shared Spectrum, but 207.5MHz isn't one of them.

Other countries have different frequency allocations...

[Hugh Robjohns]

Hi everybody, I'm going to play at an outdoor event in a small courtyard. We are two violins. From previous experience, the sound is quite feeble without amplification.

Yes, it would be.

If the courtyard is edged by buildings, standing in a corner would help a lot, using the buildings' walls to reflect rearward sound back out towards the audience.

All we have is a portable loudspeaker that has two mic inputs (one is labelled "Mic1/guitar input", the other just Mic2) and a wireless mic receiver.

I don't honestly think that's going to be much help. The mic inputs are designed for 'high-impedance' unbalanced mics and don't provide phantom power, so wouldn't work with a hired C1000 anyway.

Is it doable to put just one mic between the violins?

No, that would be a recipe for disastrous howlround feedback! With the single mic far enough back to 'hear' both violins it would inevitably also pickup a lot of sound from the speaker... the result would be a coloured sound at best, and ringing feedback most likely.

The ideal solution in your situation would be specialist clip-on mics on each violin connected to a small mixer which then feeds the powered speaker(s).

Perhaps you can hire a suitable system (and someone who knows how to operate it?

[notuno]

As far as I can make out, 207.5 MHz isn't a license exempt band in the UK. I don't know if you are in the UK, but I'm pretty sure the mics are working on a frequency that needs a license.

So if in the UK, unless you go and get a licence, you could end up with a hefty fine.

The speaker really seems to be best suited for basic music playback, not as a vocal or instrument PA system.

I'd guess its a QTX 12" (or maybe 15") 100W (50W +50W, so effectively nearer 70W output) portable PA system, that costs around £180-£200. Or possibly the same unit under a different brand name. From a UK store, it should have come with mics in the UK licence free VHF band.

Datasheet for the QTX version here: https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3678843.pdf

(if you aren't in the UK then you'll need to check the mic frequency is suitable for use in your country).

The manual doesn't say whether its mic inputs are for high or low impedance mics. But as one input is also for 'guitar' (though they don't say if this is electric guitar or the input from an electro-acoustic guitar with a built-in preamp). The mic inputs certainly don't provide phantom power and there are no individual mic gain controls, just a combined level control for both mics.

If this is all you have and can't borrow a better PA, then you'll have to use the radio mics (the speaker should have come with two, so I hope you have both). You'll need stands for them and they'll need to be positioned quite close to the violins.

If you only have one radio mic, then trying to mic up the performance through a not very loud speaker is going t cause you more hassle than it's worth, so I'd recommend sticking to a pure acoustic performance.

Thanks. The mic came with the speaker, so I guess frequency is ok. What about an electret mic with jack connection?

[notuno]

Hi everybody, I'm going to play at an outdoor event in a small courtyard. We are two violins. From previous experience, the sound is quite feeble without amplification.

Yes, it would be.

If the courtyard is edged by buildings, standing in a corner would help a lot, using the buildings' walls to reflect rearward sound back out towards the audience.

All we have is a portable loudspeaker that has two mic inputs (one is labelled "Mic1/guitar input", the other just Mic2) and a wireless mic receiver.

I don't honestly think that's going to be much help. The mic inputs are designed for 'high-impedance' unbalanced mics and don't provide phantom power, so wouldn't work with a hired C1000 anyway.

Is it doable to put just one mic between the violins?

No, that would be a recipe for disastrous howlround feedback! With the single mic far enough back to 'hear' both violins it would inevitably also pickup a lot of sound from the speaker... the result would be a coloured sound at best, and ringing feedback most likely.

The ideal solution in your situation would be specialist clip-on mics on each violin connected to a small mixer which then feeds the powered speaker(s).

Perhaps you can hire a suitable system (and someone who knows how to operate it?

No chance to use clip on or get another system, we play in a few hours. It is edged by buildings, it's an inner courtyard. I'll give it a try with the radio mic, and if it feed backs, we'll go without amplification. Thanks

[Drew Stephenson]

Thanks. The mic came with the speaker, so I guess frequency is ok. What about an electret mic with jack connection?

Unfortunately that won't work, an electret requires a power source to charge the capsule and the connections on your unit don't have 'plug in power'.

[Wonks]

Earlier C1000s' had a 9v battery power option (mine did) but that changed to two AAs on later models. There are other low-cost electret condenser mics that have battery power only (with no phantom option).

[Wonks]

Thanks. The mic came with the speaker, so I guess frequency is ok. What about an electret mic with jack connection?

It all depends on the country you're in and where you got the speaker from. A good dealer will only sell stuff that's fully suitable for use in your own country, but from eBay, Amazon or elsewhere on the internet, you get all sorts of unsuitable equipment being sold (especially where radio mics are involved). It's generally not illegal to sell it, but it can be illegal to use it.

[Dave Rowles]

Probably too late to the party on this...but.

The C1000s can be powered by an internal battery, so with a XLR-unlabanced Jack cable you would be able to plug it into the guitar input and would probably have passable results. Then you could use the C1000s on one violin and the wireless on the other violin. Make sure you're using tall boom stands, and you want the mics to be above the violins, angled down towards the bridge area of the violin. Play as close as you physically can to each of the mics to maximise the volume of the instruments into the mics. You should be able to get some useable level out of it.

BUT

It's probably not worth the effort as the amplification achieved will probably be minimal. Without a proper mixing desk, you're going to struggle to get a decent sound.

[notuno]

Probably too late to the party on this...but.

The C1000s can be powered by an internal battery, so with a XLR-unlabanced Jack cable you would be able to plug it into the guitar input and would probably have passable results. Then you could use the C1000s on one violin and the wireless on the other violin. Make sure you're using tall boom stands, and you want the mics to be above the violins, angled down towards the bridge area of the violin. Play as close as you physically can to each of the mics to maximise the volume of the instruments into the mics. You should be able to get some useable level out of it.

BUT

It's probably not worth the effort as the amplification achieved will probably be minimal. Without a proper mixing desk, you're going to struggle to get a decent sound.

Thanks, I will keep this in mind for the next performance. There is a mixing desk at the venue and speakers at the four corners of the courtyard, which is not ideal as the sound comes from all directions.

In the end, I tried the portable speaker with both radio mic and a wired mic, and the sound was awful (thin, distorted), so we went without amplification. We moved a bit closer to the audience and it was ok.

[notuno]

Probably too late to the party on this...but.

The C1000s can be powered by an internal battery, so with a XLR-unlabanced Jack cable you would be able to plug it into the guitar input and would probably have passable results. Then you could use the C1000s on one violin and the wireless on the other violin. Make sure you're using tall boom stands, and you want the mics to be above the violins, angled down towards the bridge area of the violin. Play as close as you physically can to each of the mics to maximise the volume of the instruments into the mics. You should be able to get some useable level out of it.

BUT

It's probably not worth the effort as the amplification achieved will probably be minimal. Without a proper mixing desk, you're going to struggle to get a decent sound.

Thanks, In the end, we tried the portable speaker with both radio mic and a wired mic, and the sound was awful (thin, distorted), so we went without amplification. We moved a bit closer to the audience and it was ok.

I'll keep your suggestion in mind for the next performance. There is a mixing desk at the venue and speakers at the four corners of the courtyard, but I think it's not ideal as the sound comes to audience from all directions, and I'd like it to come from near the musicians only. It's also a bit of a hassle to use as I have to ask well ahead of time the guy in charge to bring it out and wire it.

[notuno]

Thanks. The mic came with the speaker, so I guess frequency is ok. What about an electret mic with jack connection?

Unfortunately that won't work, an electret requires a power source to charge the capsule and the connections on your unit don't have 'plug in power'.

It's a Phillips stereo, battery-powered electret mic.

[AlecSp]

We moved a bit closer to the audience and it was ok.

Often the best form of sound re-inforcement - as well as the cheapest.

[Wonks]

It's a Phillips stereo, battery-powered electret mic.

That could be part of your problem. I don’t know if the mic inputs on the speaker are TRS or TS but the mic connection will be TRS, with the left output on T or R and the right output on R or T. If the speaker inputs are balanced and so TRS, you’ll only get the difference between the left and right inputs being amplified. If unbalanced TS, you’ll only be getting the left or right mic. The other side’s output will be shorted to ground, which the mic circuitry probably won’t like and given its inexpensive nature, may well affect the output signal on the working channel.

[notuno]

It's a Phillips stereo, battery-powered electret mic.

That could be part of your problem. I don’t know if the mic inputs on the speaker are TRS or TS but the mic connection will be TRS, with the left output on T or R and the right output on R or T. If the speaker inputs are balanced and so TRS, you’ll only get the difference between the left and right inputs being amplified. If unbalanced TS, you’ll only be getting the left or right mic. The other side’s output will be shorted to ground, which the mic circuitry probably won’t like and given its inexpensive nature, may well affect the output signal on the working channel.

Thanks. To be clear, I didn't try my electret mic with this speaker. I only tried the two mics that come with the speaker (or so I was told by the owner), one a radio mic and the other wired with jack connector. I don't know what kind of microphone they are (I didn't have time to check as I was getting ready to play), but I think they are mainly for voice.

[Dave Rowles]

Micing up classical instruments is not an easy thing and without experience or equipment it's never going to be great.

I've worked with many folk/classical violinists, and the best sound has always been DPA 4099 into a decent mixer.

[Bob Bickerton]

Micing up classical instruments is not an easy thing and without experience or equipment it's never going to be great.

I've worked with many folk/classical violinists, and the best sound has always been DPA 4099 into a decent mixer.

Agreed with that! Also you need a half decent sound system too.

Whilst the DPA 4099 are the best, the Audio Technica ATM350 can deliver similar results for less cost. If this sort of gig is regular, a pair of Bose S1 speakers with a small mixer (with decent reverb) and two of the above mics would set you up.

Bob

[Arpangel]

Micing up classical instruments is not an easy thing and without experience or equipment it's never going to be great.

I've worked with many folk/classical violinists, and the best sound has always been DPA 4099 into a decent mixer.

I’m not a great engineer, by any means, but I find if you have excellent mic's, that are right for the job, you’re half way there.
For instance, I set up a couple of mic's on our grand piano only based on previous experience, I didn’t know exactly what they would sound like, I wen't into the studio and had a listen while my friend was playing, it was more than fine, nothing else was needed, no compression, no EQ.
I just try and keep things simple, and use decent mic's.