Producers are underrated

[SetListSage]

I think this is true. They stereotypically, they're humble. Rarely snatching credit from the musicians. The better the producer, the better the music imo.

I'm a metal fan, I noticed that Adam Jonathan Dutkiewicz, guitarist if Killswitch Engage, produces a ton of metal albums I love. Subconsciously, I gravitate to his art. My favorite All that Remains album he produced, never knew until years later.

Butch Vig made Nirvana's sound iconic.

Ryan Tedder, I could argue, is the king of pop.

Anyway, I think producers are underrated, but I think they prefer it that way. Idk because I'm not a great producer. I'm a wanabe rofl!

[Drew Stephenson]

Yep, it's a real skill. I think it's one step to get to the point where you can 'produce' your own stuff, but another huge one to be able to do the same for someone else, and then step up again for every other act you work with.

[Arpangel]

I think this is true. They stereotypically, they're humble.

Phil Spector? Joe Meek? humble?

A producer is someone who understands everything about what you’re doing, the essence of your music, your life, your attitude. They are a member of your band.
To have someone produce my music, I’d need to have known them for many years, and have an "unspoken relationship" with them, by that I mean you can tell what someone is thinking just from the look on their face, or what they "don’t say"
I’ve never let anyone produce my music, it’s not necessary, my influences are in my head all the time, books, films, paintings, music, they are my producers, looking over my shoulder.

[James Perrett]

Yep, it's a real skill. I think it's one step to get to the point where you can 'produce' your own stuff, but another huge one to be able to do the same for someone else, and then step up again for every other act you work with.

I'd say that it is easier the other way round. I find it much easier to gain a good perspective of the material if I haven't been closely involved in its gestation. I think many people would be surprised at how good their music could sound if they employed the services of a good producer.

[Arpangel]

Yep, it's a real skill. I think it's one step to get to the point where you can 'produce' your own stuff, but another huge one to be able to do the same for someone else, and then step up again for every other act you work with.

I'd say that it is easier the other way round. I find it much easier to gain a good perspective of the material if I haven't been closely involved in its gestation. I think many people would be surprised at how good their music could sound if they employed the services of a good producer.

I think a lot of people employ producers so that they can get their music to sound more like someone else, typically employing a top producer in the genre they play in.
Which is fine, but sometimes a producer can suggest new things that maybe we haven’t thought of, Tony Visconti just an example, new techniques etc.
They can suggest new technical ideas, rather than just make you sound more like artists you admire.

[Drew Stephenson]

I'd say that it is easier the other way round. I find it much easier to gain a good perspective of the material if I haven't been closely involved in its gestation. I think many people would be surprised at how good their music could sound if they employed the services of a good producer.

Interesting. I was thinking in terms of realising a vision, in that I have a good idea of what I want my music to sound like, and 'the concepts of a plan' about how to achieve that. But I was thinking it would be more difficult to do that when the original vision isn't yours.
But as a mixing and mastering engineer you've got decades of experience doing that already.

[Matt Houghton]

I think the producer role that's really under-rated is that of coach and mentor — quietly challenging an artist and managing their energy to tease the best from them, help them grow and sometimes even settle on their musical identity, but without trying to turn them into someone else. Helps if it's a producer who can contribute musical ideas too, but not always essential. That's something you really can't do for yourself. Or at least, very few have that within themselves.

Interesting you mention Butch Vig/Nirvana, since that example also highlights the potential contribution of the mix engineer. Whether you prefer the Vig 'Devonshire Mixes" or the Andy Wallace ones that were released, they clearly sound different, and arguably the album wouldn't have been so commercially successful without the remixes...

[Martin Walker]

...sometimes a producer can suggest new things that maybe we haven’t thought of, Tony Visconti just an example, new techniques etc.
They can suggest new technical ideas, rather than just make you sound more like artists you admire.

Brian Eno instantly springs to mind here

[Arpangel]

...sometimes a producer can suggest new things that maybe we haven’t thought of, Tony Visconti just an example, new techniques etc.
They can suggest new technical ideas, rather than just make you sound more like artists you admire.

Brian Eno instantly springs to mind here

Yes, and to a broad range of musicians too, not just left field types.

[Drew Stephenson]

Just remembered this podcast from last month: https://www.soundonsound.com/people/ber ... os-podcast
Touches on a few of these topics.

[zenguitar]

Of course, if there is one place on t'interweb where Producers are not underrated it is here at SOS. Here's a link to just some of the Producers who've been referenced in the magazine or featured in podcasts...

https://www.soundonsound.com/mixing-pro ... ion%3A6972

Andy

[RichardT]

It depends who you ask! I agree with Andy.

Who gets the recognition for creating good things has always been quite a long way from who deserves the recognition.

That can cut both ways - fame generally is pretty terrible thing and it’s takes a huge amount of resilience to survive it unscathed. In some ways it’s better to be recognised by your peers but relatively unknown to the general public.

[RichardT]

It depends who you ask! I agree with Andy.

Who gets the recognition for creating good things has always been quite a long way from who deserves the recognition.

That can cut both ways - fame generally is pretty terrible thing and it’s takes a huge amount of resilience to survive it unscathed. In some ways it’s better to be recognised by your peers but relatively unknown to the general public.

PS I can relate to Andy’s comment about Djembes. I was lucky enough to be taught by some professional drummers from Ghana (but I had to stop eventually because my wrists couldn’t take the strain).

So I learned what djembes are supposed to sound like - especially the quite astonishing slap sound which is very, very hard to reproduce. I certainly never got it. And the equally astonishing cross-rhythms when they played and sang together where some parts of the rhythm are slightly ‘swung’ or ‘slipped’ creating a magical effect that is pretty much incomprehensible to a western musician. Quite amazing.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I love chatting about prodution. I think, spot on with Butch Vig, Eno and George Martin getting due credit. It’s more nuanced than just “humble,” though; Richard James Burgess’s The Art of Music Production outlines types like Eno the “Merlin” (sparking productivity and emotional insight but always with top talent), Albini the “Humble Servant” (really an engineer at heart), and Martin the “Collaborator” (writing, playing and facilitating Beatles' magic).

Does the fact there's only one book specifically about production (there are plenty compilations of interviews, autobiographies and tech talk I don't think they count) mean the role is under-rated though?

[Watchmaker]

Too, there's an evolution of the role element in addition to the person behind the personality. Some producers co-write, some just yell from behind the glass.

As far as rating goes, what metric is used to judge? Rick Rubin's another big top producer who's worth about $300 million USD so that seems pretty highly rated - monetarily anyway.

I love Visconti's production values. T. Rex had such a particular density and the early Gentle Giant records were a huge influence on me, not to mention the Bowie stuff. Eno, again, is like unto a god but he seems to be all in as a collaborator usually.

But guys like Ray Manzarek who really only produced the first three X records might be under rated.

[James Perrett]

PS I can relate to Andy’s comment about Djembes. I was lucky enough to be taught by some professional drummers from Ghana (but I had to stop eventually because my wrists couldn’t take the strain).

You've got me intrigued to know what Andy's been saying about djembes now

I love playing mine and find it really expressive but I have no idea about the proper techniques with it.

[RichardT]

PS I can relate to Andy’s comment about Djembes. I was lucky enough to be taught by some professional drummers from Ghana (but I had to stop eventually because my wrists couldn’t take the strain).

You've got me intrigued to know what Andy's been saying about djembes now

I love playing mine and find it really expressive but I have no idea about the proper techniques with it.

It’s in his footer!

[Arpangel]

Theee most important thing for me isn’t anything to do with the musical side of production, the most important thing is, am I going to like this person!
You can tell straight away as soon as they walk through the door if you’re going to hit it off, there shouldn’t be "any" efforts made on both sides, if there is forget it. Engineers too, had a few good and bad.
Sometimes you may be completely on the planet together musically, but there isn’t any connection somehow, and I’ve known people that have had terrible rows and put up with people, just because they deliver the goods, that’s not a good scene to be in.

[FrankF]

Eno is a great example of someone who can lift another artist's merely 'good' songs into the stratosphere. He's a bit like Pinter with screenplays.

I'm very fond of an album by Carmel, "Set me Free", on which Eno produced 3 or 4 songs. And guess what? They're the best tracks!

Here's a mimed version of "I Take it for Granted" on Spanish TV.

As Amos Brierley once said to me, "Ooh, she is a sensual babe, and no mistake."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCT0mwr17UM

[Drew Stephenson]

Does the fact there's only one book specifically about production (there are plenty compilations of interviews, autobiographies and tech talk I don't think they count) mean the role is under-rated though?

Thinking of books, is Paul White's book on production still available? It doesn't appear to be on the SOS store now. I'm wondering if it covers what we think of now as a producer's role.

[James Perrett]

It’s in his footer!

[tacitus]

I’m very interested in the role of producer for classical music. Having read John Culshaw’s autobiographical writings, I’m sure the quality and vision of Decca’s Ring Cycle lies in the way Culshaw was there to tie the admittedly great technical competence of Decca engineers to the concept of capturing the operatic experience without alienating the musicians/singers, particularly when asking them to redo stuff that others would have been satisfied with. The results speak for themselves - multiple remasters of a groundbreaking set that’s sold, IIRC, over 4 million copies.

The other producer I keep “bumping into” as I collect vintage LPs is Paul Myers, who had the distinction of being a well-respected thriller writer (always set in musical milieus). I think his production work has stood the test of time rather better than his fiction, good though it is. It’s just surprising to me how often I buy an LP and find out it’s a Paul Myers production. A real triumph of personal vision over the bean-counters.

[Arpangel]

I’m very interested in the role of producer for classical music. Having read John Culshaw’s autobiographical writings, I’m sure the quality and vision of Decca’s Ring Cycle lies in the way Culshaw was there to tie the admittedly great technical competence of Decca engineers to the concept of capturing the operatic experience without alienating the musicians/singers, particularly when asking them to redo stuff that others would have been satisfied with. The results speak for themselves - multiple remasters of a groundbreaking set that’s sold, IIRC, over 4 million copies.

The other producer I keep “bumping into” as I collect vintage LPs is Paul Myers, who had the distinction of being a well-respected thriller writer (always set in musical milieus). I think his production work has stood the test of time rather better than his fiction, good though it is. It’s just surprising to me how often I buy an LP and find out it’s a Paul Myers production. A real triumph of personal vision over the bean-counters.

Classical producers I’ve had experience of, and, there have been some great ones, but, on a slightly more down market level, they can be a pain.
I’ve been on sessions where the self titled "producer" has had us going round in circles editing on a microscopic level that no one would ever notice.
Moving microphones, that make no real world noticeable difference, in one case a very famous engineer was asked by a producer to lower the brass mc's a few inches which he duly did, then, he quickly moved them back to where they were and asked the producer if that was better, the producer said "that’s much better Bob, much better"
Classical productions vary so much, but I’ve found it’s more likely to be down to one of two things, bad engineering, or bad musicianship.

[tacitus]

I’d expect a classical producer not to fiddle with mikes and to tell the engineer what he or she wants rather than telling them to do a specific thing.

It’s that idea, of producers as high-handed interferers who should leave all that stuff to the engineer, that I used to have. An introduction to the principles of session management and edit control from an experienced producer in a recording course some decades ago opened my mind to the possibility that producers may bring some magic to the party and certainly discipline and organisation. More recent study into how classical recordings used to be run has enlightened me to the point where a good producer’s name on a recording is a pretty reliable indicator of quality; especially as I’ve worked backwards from recordings I admire to try and find out how it’s done.

My earliest attempts at recording would have gone better with a good producer, though I was expecting them all to be how you just described. And, frankly, now I almost always do a single take of a live concert, a producer is a luxury nobody can afford, or another monkey on my back, depending on their skill. But I can see how both classical and pop producers have contributed hugely to all areas of recording. It’s probably just history now, but if we don’t learn from history, we’re condemned to repeat the errors of the past …

[pax-eterna]

tbh, I think they are "over-rated" - seems every second record has a list of "producers" a "mile" long! haha.

Same with song writing - I read that two (mebbe 3) of the Grammy song of the year have ten writers, ten!!

How all the extra producers and writers actually contribute anything is beyond me