Roland Cloud...the good and bad

[junkmale]

this is a bit of a cautionary tale, and a bit of a rant I'm afraid, so apologies in advance if I get to sound a little tetchy!

a couple of years ago I signed up for a Roland Cloud subscription, as I got tempted by the Play4Life offer they had on at the time.

£200 for an Ultimate annual subscription, and for that you get access to every soft synth and fx plugin, plus you can choose two to keep for ever.

I thought well I'm never gonna be able to afford a real Jupiter-8 but £100 for an excellent soft synth version sounds like a pretty good deal.

And I have to say that all their soft synth recreations of classic hardware are truly excellent, and I have been/am really enjoying working with them.

Now for the ranty bit!

A couple of months ago I opened a project I hadn't looked at for a bit which was using the Sound Canvas module but it wouldn't run, just sat there with a message across it saying "not authorised".

That flummoxed me somewhat as my subscription was still valid and everything else Roland Cloud still worked.
Found the product page on the website and it now said "Discontinued".
I thought what's going on here?

Opened a support ticket, to say 'a) that's a bit off chaps, how about letting your premium subscribers know in advance if/when you're planning to discontinue a product and b) what happens in the future if you discontinue something else and it happens to be one I've chosen to keep permanently under the Play4Life scheme - will that stop working too?'

And I've been deeply disappointed by the response I've received.
The support representative assigned to my case said they did send out an email about the impending discontinuation of the Sound Canvas, and completely failed to answer my query b) above.
The tone and content of their response feels as though they either have wilfully failed to understand my concern(s) and/or simply don't care.

It's possible of course that I've just been unlucky and my ticket got assigned to the one useless div on the support team, or perhaps it's symptomatic of the general levels of customer support in this day and age

The takeaway from this I'm offering?

Watch out when choosing subscription services - of any kind, from any manufacturer.

They can be excellent, but be warned - they can also get arbitrarily discontinued at any time, and without notice.
(see the vast number of IoT things that have become bricks when the back-end services running them have been shut off).

Compare and contrast my deeply disappointing experience with Roland support in this case and a previous one.

Twenty-five years ago I bought a TR-909 second-hand - absolutely mint but no user manual.
I rang Roland's UK office and asked for the service department. Was put through to a lovely chap, who when I said I'd just picked up a 909 replied "ooh, very nice, look after it, we don't have many spares left for them!"
I explained I was looking for a manual for it, he said they didn't have any spare, but he very kindly photocopied their own workshop manual and posted it out to me FOC.

Now that's what I call customer service!

I miss the old days....

[ajay_m]

You can get bitten by this even without subscriptions. I have pretty much every one of Musiclabs products but because they just work, I haven't always religiously updated versions over time.

When I swapped to a new studio laptop, I went to relicense all my plugins and couldn't relicense one of them. Went into my account and couldn't download a license because that version had been superseded and I had not purchased an upgrade.

I contacted support and said, er hey folks, I'm kinda a good customer, don't you think, and they just upgraded me to the latest version for free. But software is always an ephemeral thing, the company might go out of business, discontinue it, who knows?. Where possible I try and keep copies of license files where offline licensing is supported, otherwise, it's a matter of keeping your fingers crossed when it comes to long-term support. (e.g NI's discontinuation of Absynth and its mysterious return from the grave).
Also iLok is a four-letter word. I won't purchase software that uses any variant of it.

[BJG145]

perhaps it's symptomatic of the general levels of customer support in this day and age

I recently raised a support ticket for a hardware device at work...jumped through the hoops, signed up to their customer portal, raised a ticket with a specific query, and got a specific answer.

Unfortunately it turned out to be the wrong answer...it took several weeks to find the correct solution which I discovered by accident.

When I went back to the original response, I realised I'd forgotten to read the small print at the bottom. It was generated by AI.

A lifetime in tech support has taught me that most 3rd party tech support is pretty useless and not to be trusted!

...completely failed to answer my query b...

The other thing I've learned is that most ppl are only capable of answering one written question at a time.

[junkmale]

@ajay - glad to hear MusicLabs sorted you out
and yep, I'm pretty meticuluous about recording software keys/codes etc.
my preferred policy is to save a txt file in the same folder as the installer with all the details in it...and to have multiple copies of my software directory spread across all my pc's (&backup discs!)

@bjg - I feel your pain, and am mostly glad that I'm essentailly retired and don't have to deal with that kind of malarky anymore

and you're quite right about sticking to one issue at a time.
I haven't given up yet on trying to get a satisfactory response from Roland support, I'll let you know if i do

[James Perrett]

I only have one piece of software that I rely on which uses some form of authorisation and that's Izotope RX. Everything else uses serial numbers.

I've tried freebies from other manufacturers like Cakewalk, Roland and BFD which just put too many obstacles in my way. If that's what they do for the demo then there's no way that I could trust them for serious use.

These days there are so many free or donationware alternatives that I have no need for anything with copy protection beyond a serial number.

[BigRedX]

And this is why, with a couple of exceptions I have stuck with the plug-ins that are part of the standard Logic install. Every time I feel tempted by something from a third party I ask myself what will it do that I can't already do with what I have and most of the time the answer is access to a few hundred new presets, and by the time I've auditioned all of these I could have created a suitable sound using what I already have.

[junkmale]

well, if you can get a fully functional, immaculate sounding Jupiter-8, or SH-2, or CR-78 etc out of the standard Logic plug-ins may I suggest you could probably have a very lucrative income stream selling the custom patches!

all of my music-making software is perpetually licenced, with the sole exception of Roland Cloud.

and I only signed up for that becasuse of the deal they were offering to keep two plugins a year permanently. I thought getting my hands on a fabulous emulation of a Jupiter-8, from the original hardware manufacturer, for £100, seemed like a good deal.

my gripe is that if they decide to discontinue a product in the future that I've selected to own permanently, and my installation stops working - that's not really permanent is it?

[BigRedX]

well, if you can get a fully functional, immaculate sounding Jupiter-8, or SH-2, or CR-78 etc out of the standard Logic plug-ins may I suggest you could probably have a very lucrative income stream selling the custom patches!

I think this is where I differ from your typical synth player. I'm not interested in actual sounds per se but more "kinds" of sounds. I'm familiar with all the devices mentioned and have actually owned a CR78 and a Jupiter 6 (which when played solo I preferred to the JP8), but none of them are absolutely essential to the music I make today even though sound-wise it borrows heavily from the late 70s and early 80.

IMO there's nothing any of the various synths I have owned over the years since I bought my first in 1982 that can't be replicated "in spirit" with Retro Synth, ES2 or Alchemy all of which are part of the Logic installation. In the 80s I was a serial synth owner because I could only afford something "better" by selling what I already had. Each time I upgraded I would have to create suitable new sounds for all the songs in my band's set. Sometimes the synths were about as different as they could be like when I went from a Korg MS20 to a Casio CZ5000, so trying to create an exact replacement with my new synth would have been completely futile. Instead of worrying about this, I would program brand new sounds that did the same job in the overall song arrangement as the old ones.

When I listen to demos of synths the presets always sound impressive, but IME most are actually little use when they need to fit into the arrangement of a piece of music, and the few that are tend to be over-used by everyone who owns that synth. The sounds I program are fairly ordinary when heard on their own but work perfectly in the context of the arrangement/mix of our songs and consequently are of no use to anyone other than my band.

[Folderol]

Personally I wouldn't touch anything cloud-based with a bargepole. Too many ways it could go wrong.

[junkmale]

I think I get your point, and I'm largely in agreement with you.

as I mentioned above, all the rest of my music related software is perpetually licensed, with the Roland Cloud susbcription the only exception.

and as I also mentioned above, I only signed up for it because they had an offer on that allowed me to choose two plug-ins to keep permanently.

but having perpetual licences for other stuff doesn't necessarily mean keeping them in perpetuity.

a couple of examples -

I was a very happy Sonar user. then Gibson decided they wanted to get in to the growing music software market and bought up Cakewalk. not long after making the aquisition they changed their minds and killed it off

ditto Cool Edit. Syntrillium did a great job coding that up, and then they got bought out by Adobe...and that was the end of Cool Edit. **

even owning hardware outright is no guarantee of having it in perpetuity.
case in point, the SW1000, which is an excellent soundcard. but because Yamaha can't be bothered to update the driver for it, I'm reduced to nursing along a 20yr old XP machine to keep it alive..and I know I'm not the only SW1000 owner doing that.

so yeah, in perpetuity appears to have a flexible definition these days

**
although Syntrillium did such a good job of coding Cool Edit it still installs & runs fine on Win10 64bit, yaay!

(Sonar X3 also installs ok on Win10, and mostly runs ok.)

[James Perrett]

ditto Cool Edit. Syntrillium did a great job coding that up, and then they got bought out by Adobe...and that was the end of Cool Edit. **

The only thing that was killed off was the name. It became Adobe Audition and is still available today - albeit currently only on subscription. When they changed to the subscription model they also allowed registered users of Audition V3 to download a licence code which could be used to install it on new machines in perpetuity without having to contact Adobe.

[BillB]

even owning hardware outright is no guarantee of having it in perpetuity.
case in point, the SW1000

Yes, I had one too. Useless within 10 years, was it?
Whereas, my 40-year old Alpha Juno still works, has a bunch of software editors on different platforms, and sounds lovely. I would rather take my chances with old capacitors than some of the new software options.

[junkmale]

ditto Cool Edit. Syntrillium did a great job coding that up, and then they got bought out by Adobe...and that was the end of Cool Edit. **

The only thing that was killed off was the name. It became Adobe Audition and is still available today - albeit currently only on subscription. When they changed to the subscription model they also allowed registered users of Audition V3 to download a licence code which could be used to install it on new machines in perpetuity without having to contact Adobe.

what I meant was Adobe have a bit of a reputation for stuffing up software**. they may have turned Cool Edit into Audition, but I'd be amazed if it's retained the quality of the original Syntrillium code.

** for the most egregious example, remember Flash

[junkmale]

even owning hardware outright is no guarantee of having it in perpetuity.
case in point, the SW1000

Yes, I had one too. Useless within 10 years, was it?

not mine - 35years old and still working perfectly thank you!

Whereas, my 40-year old Alpha Juno still works, has a bunch of software editors on different platforms, and sounds lovely. I would rather take my chances with old capacitors than some of the new software options.

that's great! as long as you can still get replacement capacitors when the old ones blow

[James Perrett]

what I meant was Adobe have a bit of a reputation for stuffing up software**. they may have turned Cool Edit into Audition, but I'd be amazed if it's retained the quality of the original Syntrillium code.

** for the most egregious example, remember Flash

They did mess it up with version 2 of Audition but 3 was much better and still seems to work fine with Windows 11.

[BillB]

@junkmale, I see you joined the ‘SW1000 as a module’ discussion
https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... hp?t=29628

I think we exhausted all possibilities of reusing the SW1000, but if you are happy keeping it going in an old PC, that’s fine.

As for the Juno’s (or any other old gear’s) capacitors, as long as they are not surface mount, they are usually fairly straightforward to replace, if needed. I did even manage to replace the SMD caps in all my SR-JV (JV-2080) expansion boards, following a Don Solaris YouTube advisory video.

So, yes, for longevity of use, I would rather take my chances with capacitors, than with the likes of Roland Cloud! However I fully appreciate that software does stuff that older hardware can’t, such as massive sample libraries etc (but let’s not mention NI just now). It is mostly an issue of what sounds you like/need to use and how you like to use them.

Got to admit, I like to own stuff, and be able to pick it up and even take it apart… old school.

[junkmale]

I'm with you on the hardware front Bill, really I am.

apart from the 'ownership' question, and the joy of operating a tactile interface, as I think I've mentioned on here before there's a certain je ne sais quoi about the sound from hardware synths.

as good as some more modern software synths are, hardware - for me anyway - just seems to have more 'oomph' to it!

but unless I win the lottery, the chances of me owning an actual Jupiter-8 are zero. whereas with the Play4Life offer I got an excellent software emulation for £100

and there are some advantages to software - what's not to like about having a MIDI-addressable SH-2 and CR-78?
or taking a laptop on holiday and having all of Roland's classic synths to play with?

what's irked me is Roland's apparent and arbitrary re-defining of words and phrases like "permanent" and "keep for life"...grrr!

Sam

[BillB]

I think we are agreed on all fronts. Part of the attraction of hardware is having a chance to own and use stuff that I couldn’t afford when it first came out. On the other hand, I remember discussions in the 90’s and 00’s about how to best manage patches and align them with your tracks, using tricks like recording Sysex to the start of your MIDI tracks to get the right sounds in the right places. Or documenting patch names and sound bank carefully so that setups can be recreated. I’m still having those issues. Ugh!

Compared to that, VSTi’s with the right sound always in the right place, are a doddle, provided of course that you can access the right software! I fully appreciate that ITB is a great and probably very productive way to work. If I was trying to be efficient about generating music, I’m sure it is the way I would go.

But the technical issues of having a bunch of MIDI synths are actually part of the intellectual challenge and enjoyment for me. In the end, I like problems where the issues and solutions are (largely) in my control, not in the hands of corporations.

[Arpangel]

Last night I was about a millionth of a hairs breadth away from ordering g a Prophet 5 from Andertons, the reason? I was playing around with my Arturia Pro 5, playing some of my own sounds, I haven't used it for quite some time, and the sounds are very beautiful, in that basic "organy" "reedy" type of way, just good solid simple very emotional sounds, in no way over programmed or over produced.
I thought, f***k it, I've got to have this, looking at the thing itself on the website just reminded me of my old Pro 5, the simplicity, the tactile feel of it, just great.
I have a few tracks that I did with that keyboard, especially the opening track on my album "The End Of The World" which surprised me at the time, just a great sound, it inspired that piece.
As I was looking at prices, I thought, hang on, this is 2.5k, I haven't spent that much on any music equipment for years, how much better in "reality" is this going to be better than my computer? is it just a nostalgia thing? the feel is important but it's not actually anything to do with the sound, could I tell the difference if I didn't know?
All the reasons for me wanting it there and then were for reasons that had nothing to do with the sound, yes, the hardware may sound more like it should, but how much more? is it important? 2.5k's worth of important?
Too many doubts, not enough confirmations to make me spend that much money at the drop of a hat, and that's why I haven't bought anything like this for ages, I can never think of enough convincing reasons, money isn't the issue, if I had all the money in the world I'm not the type of person to buy stuff I don't need, I'm not a "oh just buy it anyway you can afford it" type of guy.
I like having "just what I need" it keeps the options down, which is always a good thing, I think I have a good balance between hardware and software, to make my music anyway, I'm not a staunch advocate of either, they are both useful, so the button wasn't pressed, you know it makes sense, plus, when I shuffle off it's just another thing to get rid of.

[BillB]

Tony, your post made me wonder what is the most I ever paid for a piece of hardware, given that most of my stuff is second-hand. I think the prize goes to the Novation Summit - the S/H value of £1350 was secured with a PX of a Peak, SH-201 and a System-8.

Summit is a ‘dream big synth’, capable of pretty much anything that any other ‘big synth’ can do. Peak was the inspiration (I want more…); SH-201 was a nice VA but another one with silly Roland limitations (primarily no screen or patch naming); and the System-8, lovely sounds but hobbled by reliance on Roland Cloud for patch management, no Sysex etc.

Which kind of brings the discussion back to the start. I like synths that allow me to manage them how I want to, not relying on anyone else’s ‘ecosystem’. To me, this was a key part of the 80’s 90’s 00’s vision of what MIDI could do for synthesis and sound. Manufacturers create a Sysex capability and publish it. Software support, often from multiple sources and platforms, will follow.

[Arpangel]

Tony, your post made me wonder what is the most I ever paid for a piece of hardware, given that most of my stuff is second-hand. I think the prize goes to the Novation Summit - the S/H value of £1350 was secured with a PX of a Peak, SH-201 and a System-8.

Summit is a ‘dream big synth’, capable of pretty much anything that any other ‘big synth’ can do. Peak was the inspiration (I want more…); SH-201 was a nice VA but another one with silly Roland limitations (primarily no screen or patch naming); and the System-8, lovely sounds but hobbled by reliance on Roland Cloud for patch management, no Sysex etc.

Which kind of brings the discussion back to the start. I like synths that allow me to manage them how I want to, not relying on anyone else’s ‘ecosystem’. To me, this was a key part of the 80’s 90’s 00’s vision of what MIDI could do for synthesis and sound. Manufacturers create a Sysex capability and publish it. Software support, often from multiple sources and platforms, will follow.

Depends what music you make, but for me, patch management isn't that important, as long as I've got a few slots, and the ability to dump them out to back up sticks, I'm fine.
It's the sound of some synths, the Pro 5 has a definite sound, it's not that typical 80's stuff, it's much deeper than that, it's a sweet fruity sound, on some patches, very acoustic sounding, like a real reed organ, or a pipe organ.
And, it's got. a lot of movement in it, even a single oscillator, and "THAT" is probably where the hardware is better than the software, if anywhere.
But it's not a big deal, I'll survive.