New Palmer Orbit 11 3 way coaxial with cardioid design - £699 each!?

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

I saw these announced yesterday :-

https://www.palmer-germany.com/en/produ ... 1/orbit-11

• Coaxial true point source (6.5" mid + 1" tweeter)

• Impulse compensated dual 8" woofers for tight, resonance-free bass

• True 3-way design for full-range accuracy and clarity

• Cardioid design for controlled directivity and reduced room interaction

• Ultra Wide frequency range (28 Hz–28 kHz @ -3 dB)

• 120° ×120° constant directivity provides uniform coverage

• FIR filters for linear phase with minimal latency

• Advanced low-end design improves wall coupling and reduces cancellations

• High-resolution 96 kHz / 24-bit DAC and DSP

• Analog and AES3 inputs for seamless integration

• 1000 W Class-D amplifier delivers high dynamic range

• Clean control panel with desk & wall presets for efficient setup

• Die-cast aluminium housing for ultra-low resonance

• Black or white finish for your individual style

At £699 each these look very interesting and I'm keen to hear how they compare to my Neumann KH120's or the KH150!

[James Perrett]

There's an awful lot missing from the specs on their web page.

Any serious monitors should go into the same level of detail that Neumann give.

[Hugh Robjohns]

They do look interesting. But there are significant engineering differences to the Neumann DSP speakers so any comparison needs to bear that in mind.

For a start, the Palmer appears to be a powered three-way speaker with a passive crossover, as opposed to the fully active approach taken by the Neumann DSP speakers. In others words, there's a single power amp feeding a passive three-way crossover in the Palmer, as opposed separate power amps feeding each driver directly in the Neumann speakers.

Neumann's approach allows precise DSP optimisation of each individual driver's frequency and phase responses, as well as accurate driver excursion protection etc. Individual driver protection is not possible through a passive crossover, and the DSP optimisation of frequency and phase response may not be quite as accurate, either.

I'd like to see polar plots of the claimed cardioid design. In general, achieving that requires a controlled amount of opposite-polarity LF leakage to the rear, but the cabinet vents appear to be on the sides at the front, so I'm not at all sure how that works (or to what frequency).

The true point-source claim is also a little optimistic. It's obviously true for mid and high frequencies thanks to that coaxial driver (which is important), but the back-to-back LF drivers are clearly located behind the mid and HF drivers. I imagine the DSP is providing some level of HF/MF time-alignment for on-axis listeners, but that won't apply to off-axis sound reflected in the room (unlike the Genelec One range point-source design, for example).

But yes, it looks interesting and potentially good value. I look forward to reading Phil's review in due course....

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts based on the info given so far.
There are quite a few missing meaningful data measurements at the moment so it will be very interesting to read Phil's review!

[Wonks]

13.9kg for the Palmer, 5.4kg for the KH120ii, 8.0kg for the KH150. Light, they aren't!

[Wonks]

I also see it's got an 80Hz high pass filter, but there's no matching sub (at the moment at least).

[Forum Admin]

Decent video: https://youtu.be/yfvrl1_o6Sw?si=V5SL9_Abl40YKvHA

[Hugh Robjohns]

I also see it's got an 80Hz high pass filter, but there's no matching sub (at the moment at least).

Would it need one when the specs claim it has an "Ultra Wide frequency range (28 Hz–28 kHz @ -3 dB)"?

[Hugh Robjohns]

13.9kg for the Palmer, 5.4kg for the KH120ii, 8.0kg for the KH150. Light, they aren't!

It appears to have an aluminium cabinet, and it has four drivers (compared to just two in the Neumanns). The two opposed bass drivers are also larger than the Neumanns at 8-inches diameter and probably with large magnets to achieve that kind of LF extension.

[Wonks]

I also see it's got an 80Hz high pass filter, but there's no matching sub (at the moment at least).

Would it need one when the specs claim it has an "Ultra Wide frequency range (28 Hz–28 kHz @ -3 dB)"?

I don’t know. But according to the blurb it’s got one on the control panel, so it must be there for something. Maybe use in a 5.1 monitoring system where you need a sub? But are you meant to use a dedicated sub or another unit that has an 80Hz low pass filter?

[dickiefunk]

The amplifier and power supply are cooled by the aluminum housing.

Palmer are saying they have another product/s coming in the near future.

[Kayvon]

The true point-source claim is also a little optimistic. It's obviously true for mid and high frequencies thanks to that coaxial driver (which is important), but the back-to-back LF drivers are clearly located behind the mid and HF drivers. I imagine the DSP is providing some level of HF/MF time-alignment for on-axis listeners, but that won't apply to off-axis sound reflected in the room (unlike the Genelec One range point-source design, for example).

Surely it wouldn't matter where the LF drivers were located on that size box? They'd have to start being quite a way away before it made any odds. Unless there was some specific intermodulation effects which again, I imagine would come into effect wherever the drivers were located. Wavelengths in question are well beyond any baffle.

[Wonks]

The true point-source claim is also a little optimistic. It's obviously true for mid and high frequencies thanks to that coaxial driver (which is important), but the back-to-back LF drivers are clearly located behind the mid and HF drivers. I imagine the DSP is providing some level of HF/MF time-alignment for on-axis listeners, but that won't apply to off-axis sound reflected in the room (unlike the Genelec One range point-source design, for example).

Surely it wouldn't matter where the LF drivers were located on that size box? They'd have to start being quite a way away before it made any odds. Unless there was some specific intermodulation effects which again, I imagine would come into effect wherever the drivers were located. Wavelengths in question are well beyond any baffle.

The important definition being talked about here is ‘point source’. Basically all the sound emanating from a single point in space and time. The LF drivers aren’t in the same place as the mid and HF drivers, so it’s not a true point source

As Hugh said, DSP can correct for that for a listening position directly in front of the speaker, but move off axis and the time delay required will be slightly different for each off-axis position to get the same timing accuracy that true point source provides.

It certainly doesn’t make it an inherently bad monitor - very few monitors are true point source and a lot of very expensive, very well respected monitors have separate HF+LF or HF+MF+HF drivers. And the majority of listening when recording/mixing will be done sat directly in front of the monitors with them pointed at you.

[dickiefunk]

For a start, the Palmer appears to be a powered three-way speaker with a passive crossover, as opposed to the fully active approach taken by the Neumann DSP speakers. In others words, there's a single power amp feeding a passive three-way crossover in the Palmer, as opposed separate power amps feeding each driver directly in the Neumann speakers.

Neumann's approach allows precise DSP optimisation of each individual driver's frequency and phase responses, as well as accurate driver excursion protection etc. Individual driver protection is not possible through a passive crossover, and the DSP optimisation of frequency and phase response may not be quite as accurate, either.

Just found out the Orbit 11’s have three amps. 1x 250w for the high frequency driver, 1x 250w for the mid driver and 1x 500w for the woofer. Palmer are going to update this on their website.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Ah! That makes a lot more sense...