Choosing a keyboard

[ef37a]

Plenty of players on the strength!
Son is getting back into his 'piano' chops but is limited by a 49 key controller and has expressed the possibility of buying something bigger and better. 61 or possibly 88 keys are on the cards.

He played quite a lot of actual piano at uni and pre Covid was allowed to practice jo' in a local church but of course, having an instrument on hand is far better. I say this because the key action is perhaps quite important to him.

His controller is of course "dumb" but I don't know if a synth of some sort would be better? Yes! You are all going to chorus "BUDGET!!!" Luckily that should not be much of a problem soon. That is not to say he should waste money on bells and whistles he will never use. He is and will always remain a guitarist most of all.

Dave.

[James Perrett]

Well the big question is does he want weighted keys? If he wants to play piano sounds then they help quite a bit. However, if he wants to play organ or synth sounds then a non weighted keyboard might be better. For an unweighted keyboard I've been impressed with my lad's Nektar SE61 which was under £80.

If he wants a weighted keyboard then it might be worth seeing if someone local to him is selling a digital piano. Often they're for sale because people have given up learning piano and just want the space back.

[adrian_k]

As a guitarist who bought a 61 key synth, I wish I’d gone for 73 keys. A few things I play I miss the lower octave, I can get it with octave shift but if I was buying now I’d look for 73.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I'd agree with James, there are often good actions available used. Casio Privia is a line that one might not consider but actually the action is better than most. If you post a selection of what is available used locally, post it here. A lot of older weighted controllers are under valued. I would say don't go too old, but the issues are usually straightforward stuff for you to deal with Dave- failing PSUs and EL foils etc. I am still using a 1992 Akai MX-1000, it's a bit of a hobby to keep it going LOL in fact it's not hard.

[James Perrett]

I am still using a 1992 Akai MX-1000, it's a bit of a hobby to keep it going LOL in fact it's not hard.

My main keyboards are an early 90s Fatar with a weighted action which forgets its setup when switched off (one day I'll replace the battery) and a Hohner HS-1 which is a Casio FZ-1 with a white paint job. The display on the Hohner is very faint and I've recently had to clean the keyboard contacts but otherwise it still appears to be working fine.

[ef37a]

Thanks for all the advice so far chaps.

Weighted keys? Yes, I am pretty sure he will want that.

Digital piano? Nice to have but space is short in his flat, especially as he needs to fit 3 more bodies and their kit in there from time to time for recording. Something that can be slid under the bed is more the answer I reckon.
Only a few years ago I was almost weeping seeing super digital pianos and organs going for well under £100 in Scope and Cash Converters...dad was a decent pianist and he would have bloody loved one!

Something he can "keep going" Thomas? No fear! He is not built that way and there seems to be nobody in Le Havre capable of fixing his A&H zed 10. To be fair there is only one guy AFAIK in Northampton and he is constantly rammed.

So gents, please add "utterly reliable" to the list of features! Unless anyone knows anybody in France fairly near him?

Dave.

[Bob Bickerton]

I use the Korg Liano 88 key digital piano as my main controller in the studio. Excellent value, semi-weighted keys, with good feel, and a half decent piano sound as well as a few other sound options. MIDI over USB, but do you need MIDI out over 5 pin dyn?

Bob

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I am seeing a lot of Thomann DP series pianos near Le Havre. I don't know what those are like, but I recently fixed a Hemingway which I think is very similar, and the action is quite ok. Not as good as the old Yamaha GHS action I think, which is their standard action these days at the budget end. It's definitely good enough for practicing piano dynamics. Here are links to some decent ones, are these over budget Dave?
https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/instruments ... 3147708841
https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/instruments ... 3133966557

a Hohner HS-1 which is a Casio FZ-1 with a white paint job. The display on the Hohner is very faint and I've recently had to clean the keyboard contacts but otherwise it still appears to be working fine.

The FZ-1 I had featured led weights in the keys, not bad for a synth action but I much prefer piano action. There is a solution for the faint backlight, remove the whining step up transformer for the EL foil and replace with a buck converter, get an iphone backlight, cut diffuser to size, adjust buck voltage output for desired brightness.

[James Perrett]

Thanks for all the advice so far chaps.

Weighted keys? Yes, I am pretty sure he will want that.

Digital piano? Nice to have but space is short in his flat, especially as he needs to fit 3 more bodies and their kit in there from time to time for recording. Something that can be slid under the bed is more the answer I reckon.

The problem is that something with weighted keys is likely to be at least 76 notes and often 88 notes wide.

[ef37a]

I use the Korg Liano 88 key digital piano as my main controller in the studio. Excellent value, semi-weighted keys, with good feel, and a half decent piano sound as well as a few other sound options. MIDI over USB, but do you need MIDI out over 5 pin dyn?

Bob

Nice but no cigar! Thanks Bob. I am sure he will want DIN MIDI to go to his MOTU M4 and preferably 'in and out'. Also, dedicated line out on TRS jacks and, if possible at 'pro', +4dBu, level to feed 3/4 of the M4 although I know such levels are rare on keyboards, they are mostly neg ten...often not specified!

I repeat, budget is not likely to be an issue but shall we say deep thought would kick in at more than £500?

Dave.

[tacitus]

I went through a load of this over the years. When I got an unexpected legacy I was able to buy a Roland RD150 stage piano, and got quite used to the Roland action, not too far away from my real Bluthner (itself a legacy). Later I bought a Roland FP30, which I still play sometimes as it’s in our village church now. This was possible because I’d got by then a 6 octave Yamaha P121, which ticks all my boxes - hammer action, reasonable selection of sounds accessible by buttons, good enough piano sounds, DIN MIDI socket (I might have used it once!), usable drawbar organ sound with pedal controlled rotary, albeit limited.

I’ve been using it for around a decade for rehearsals and gigs with a function band. Sits quite happily on a Stagg X stand, and with the full “furniture stand” fitted, has three pedals and sits on my skoda Fabia’s back seat to be held in place by the seat belts. Unclip them and it’s a one-person carry into the venue.

The built-in speakers are just loud enough for rehearsals so there’s just this and the Bari sax to schlepp around. Now it’s been superseded you’ll probably find a reasonable one somewhere. It was under £500 new, plus about £150 IIRC for the proper stand and pedals. The full-size P125 is identical except for the extra octave and a bit.

I just wish there were more 73-Key hammer action instruments about. I retire from the function band in May, so the P121 will go into my listening room when I’ve shifted the large and unusable (for me) Wersi Orion organ.

[RichardT]

A key thing in deciding the number of keys is repertoire.

For anything other than classical, 73 is fine and 88 is a bit wasteful IMO as the top notes just don't get used. For classical, there are real advantages in 88.

What I'm well out of touch with is whether there are 73 key digital pianos with a decent action!

[ef37a]

A key thing in deciding the number of keys is repertoire.

For anything other than classical, 73 is fine and 88 is a bit wasteful IMO as the top notes just don't get used. For classical, there are real advantages in 88.

What I'm well out of touch with is whether there are 73 key digital pianos with a decent action!

Interesting! Yes, son is very keen on Bach for instance and has managed several transcriptions on guitar...even did a "recital" for which he was paid! I am sure he would like to play many of the Bach pieces on the original keyboard, some are just impossible on guitar (but he is playing with a looper to try to overcome some of those limitations)
Quite keen on Scott Joplin as well.

Dave.

[Nazard]

Yes, son is very keen on Bach

You can play many of the Bach keyboard works on a 61 note keyboard and some of the Mozart piano sonatas, too.

Yamaha make very nice keyboards and the P45 has a graded hammer standard (GHS) keyboard. I have the CK88 with GHS and it's fine for classical piano.

The Yamaha P45 digital piano has MIDI, but over USB‑to‑Host and doesn't have traditional 5‑pin DIN MIDI ports. But you can run a MOTU M4 and MIDI via USB simultaneously. And price wise, the P45 is good value at about £260.

[adrian_k]

Yes, son is very keen on Bach

You can play many of the Bach keyboard works on a 61 note keyboard and some of the Mozart piano sonatas, too.

Yamaha make very nice keyboards and the P45 has a graded hammer standard (GHS) keyboard. I have the CK88 with GHS and it's fine for classical piano.

The Yamaha P45 digital piano has MIDI, but over USB‑to‑Host and doesn't have traditional 5‑pin DIN MIDI ports. But you can run a MOTU M4 and MIDI via USB simultaneously. And price wise, the P45 is good value at about £260.

If I had room I would definitely buy one of these, I used one at work and I like the build, keyboard, and the onboard sound is OK too.

[RichardT]

Yes, son is very keen on Bach

You can play many of the Bach keyboard works on a 61 note keyboard and some of the Mozart piano sonatas, too.

Yamaha make very nice keyboards and the P45 has a graded hammer standard (GHS) keyboard. I have the CK88 with GHS and it's fine for classical piano.

The Yamaha P45 digital piano has MIDI, but over USB‑to‑Host and doesn't have traditional 5‑pin DIN MIDI ports. But you can run a MOTU M4 and MIDI via USB simultaneously. And price wise, the P45 is good value at about £260.

Yes, Bach doesn't need the full range for sure.

[ef37a]

"
Yes, Bach doesn't need the full range for sure."

"Don't get technical with me RT" !!

Heh! you are all confusing this old valve jockey! "Does he play classical music?" Yes. "then he will need 88 keys". Except for Bach then he won't!
I sort of understand but my musical knowledge is shaky bordering on non existent...Still, son Steve's isn't so he can make that decision.

I have been TRYING to get some basic I/O information on some of the models suggested so far. Bloody hard. WTF you can't just put "model XYZ" in a manufacturers website and PING! get a .pdf all the time I do not know. Many companies do do that but Yammy, Korg et al do not it seems and if a model is discontinued we are not allowed to know! No matter, he won't be going second hand due to the reliability/servicing point.

What I HAVE discovered is that until you get past about a bag and a bit, the units are pretty poorly served for connections. DINs are quite rare as are line outputs. Oddly built in speakers with "15watt" amplifiers are often provided.

I might change my parameters a bit and just look for 'dumb' key board controllers but of high quality with good, weighted keys. He is well served with laptops ( a W10 and W11) and has a spare interface. UMC204HD not sure what its latency performance is but worth a try. If it is laggy I can ship him my KA6. I don't see the point of paying for nice piano sounds in the keyboard if there is not even a "semi pro" way to get 'em out!

But! 'tis all preciated!

Dave.

[Fronzo]

I've been looking into getting a new keyboard for myself over last few months, so have been looking at what's available! I think Yamaha give the best bang for your buck at the sub £1000 price point! If your son is mainly a guitarist and wants a keyboard to practice piano pieces, it might be worth considering a stage piano / digital piano, with weighted keys, but also an arranger type keyboard, which has musical accompaniment (drum grooves, etc) which he could use as a drum machine to jam along with, or practice his guitar, might be worth a look also. If weighted keys are important to him, then the obvious choice would be a Yamaha DGX 670, which is a highly regarded 88 note, weighted piano action with amazing piano, electric piano, organ, clavinet sounds, as well as hundreds of other voices, 256 note polyphony, but also has some excellent "musical styles" and even a 16 track sequencer for recording whole songs, etc. They retail at just under £700 new, but can often be found as B-stock, or ex demo, etc from £500 upwards. The 670 is a big upgrade over previous DGX models. The DGX is quite a bit bigger and heavier than the other models below, so maybe not ideal for gigging with, but has all the bells and whistles he could ever want! If he would never use the musical styles, or sequencer and just wants something basic, but with weighted keys, then the P-145, or P-225 might be more suited, retailing just under, or just over the £400 mark. If he doesn't really need the weighted keyboard action, or full size 88 note keyboard, but does want some drum grooves to play around with, then the Yamaha PSR arrangers might be worth a look. The PSR-SX600 is an excellent 61 note machine, with powerful built in speakers, amazing sounds, sequencer, etc for just over the £600 mark, but lesser models such as the PSR-E583, E483, both brand new(61 note) models or the PSR EW-425 (76 note) might be ideal and all retail below £500! There are loads of reviews on all these machines on Youtube to find out more about them and comparisons with similar models from other brands such as Roland, Korg, Casio, etc, so Youtube reviews are a good place to start!

[ajay_m]

Until around the time of Beethoven's mid period, the piano was very much an evolving instrument and much classical music written earlier than Beethoven uses a more restricted octave compass. In fact I can recall a wonderful concert at the Wigmore Hall where the performer brought along his own fortepiano with a five octave compass and remarked whimsically that he felt like Linus in the Peanuts cartoon strip, sitting down at his little keyboard.
This did not prevent him delivering an astonishing virtuoso performance, mind you.
So Beethoven's earlier works were often performed on the fortepiano and it occurs to me to wonder if there are any good sample libraries for one - this is something I had not thought about previously. It has quite a different timbral quality from the pianoforte which succeeded it.

At any event, therefore, Bach and Mozart are usually quite practical to perform even on a five octave keyboard and it is only later composers who began to exploit the wider octave compass of the piano as it evolved.

I used to own a Korg X5D which was the most extraordinarily lightweight keyboard I have ever used - it probably weighed less than the average bass guitar. This was very handy for rehearsal work where you could just tuck it under one arm; sure, some of its sounds were not cutting edge, but it certainly did the trick in terms of convenience. So it may be a matter of compromise; if you want something you can just tuck under the bed, a lightweight fairly compact keyboard might still be the most sensible compromise.

[RichardT]

Sorry for the confusion!

Later Western classical music is more likely to need the full 88 keys. I didn't want to complicate things by distinguishing different kinds of classical music. Even some modern material doesn't need 88 keys! But 88 keys will suffice for almost all of it.

@ajaym - I still have a Korg X5D! Very good little keyboard.

[Nazard]

I have been TRYING to get some basic I/O information on some of the models suggested so far. Bloody hard. WTF you can't just put "model XYZ" in a manufacturers website and PING! get a .pdf all the time I do not know. Many companies do do that but Yammy, Korg et al do not it seems and if a model is discontinued we are not allowed to know! No matter, he won't be going second hand due to the reliability/servicing point.

The Yamaha manuals contain that sort of information, e.g.:

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/download/o ... _En_D0.pdf

The P45 doesn't have lineout and plugging in 'phones mutes the speakers, but with a 'Y' cable you could output to the M4 and listen to the phones or route to an external amp, etc..

[Nazard]

So Beethoven's earlier works were often performed on the fortepiano and it occurs to me to wonder if there are any good sample libraries for one

Modartt Pianoteq, though physically modelled, not sampled, has some very good historical keyboards and pianos in its library.

[ef37a]

So Beethoven's earlier works were often performed on the fortepiano and it occurs to me to wonder if there are any good sample libraries for one

Modartt Pianoteq, though physically modelled, not sampled, has some very good historical keyboards and pianos in its library.

We have it Nazard and I dare say son will upgrade. He searches the web for free samples because he uses Reaper and Cakewalk to derive MIDI data from his guitar then he puts it together such as part of a Brandenberg. He tell me you should not use the same sample twice in a row as that sounds "synthetic"* so he will look for say an A from one cello sample but an F# from another.

*Well of course it is ALL synthetic but he gets the results he wants. All tends to be a bit "Stylophone" to dad these days!

I am beginning to think he might be better off looking for a 'pre loved' keyboard in the £200 area and replacing it if it breaks? There must be some good music shops in Paris? Not that expensive a train trip.

Dave.

[Nazard]

I am beginning to think he might be better off looking for a 'pre loved' keyboard in the £200 area and replacing it if it breaks?

The Yamaha costs about £260 in the UK and £275 from Thomann, weighs 11.5Kg and is well built with a guarantee. Plus, with a digital piano you turn it on and a few seconds later, you play. Easier than connecting via MIDI and playing samples, etc., unless you have a permanent setup in place.

[ef37a]

I am beginning to think he might be better off looking for a 'pre loved' keyboard in the £200 area and replacing it if it breaks?

The Yamaha costs about £260 in the UK and £275 from Thomann, weighs 11.5Kg and is well built with a guarantee. Plus, with a digital piano you turn it on and a few seconds later, you play. Easier than connecting via MIDI and playing samples, etc., unless you have a permanent setup in place.

Thanks but yes, he pretty much does. He runs an old Evolution Ekeys49 into the M4 so it would be more or less a straight swap. To have piano and other sounds and line outputs would be a bonus but perhaps not strictly necessary?

Dave.