Best position for desk and monitors in L shaped room

[James Perrett]

Personally I would stick with what you have and maybe keep an eye out for another KH750. If I had a pair of KH120s I probably wouldn't consider it worth changing them for anything less than a pair of KH310s - which can be found used for not much more than a new pair of KH150s.

[dickiefunk]

As my room is very small and a poor layout, I don’t have the space to adequately acoustically treat the frequencies a sub would put out. Because of this, I’m not sure a sub would be a good option for mixing in my room? I don’t use my Eve sub for mixing, only rehearsals and I’m not sure I would need it at all with the KH120ii, KH150 and IK iLoud Precision 6.

I would like to use room correction software and I really like the ‘set and forget’ idea of having the calibration stored within the monitors dsp like the KH120ii/KH150 and IK iLoud Precision 6. One thing Neumann mention is the MA 1 software linearises the phase response of the monitors. Does IK’s ARC4/Studio and Sonarworks Sound ID do this?

My refurb should be done next week and I will be able to change the position of my Eve sub from the corner to under my new desk.

[dickiefunk]

This is an update of my room so far. I have the Eve sub under my desk at the moment as it's the most practical place for me to put it.

I've been listening to lots of reference material and mixes I've done and I'm noticing a dip in the low mids when using the sub. I have the sub filter set to 80hz but when I mute the sub the KH120's sound noticeably fuller by themselves. The KH120's also feel like they sound fuller than they previously did on my old DIY desk but I have no way of comparing this accurately. The new desk is considerably more solid than the old desk so I'm not sure if that's potentially contributing towards this?

I'm wondering if this is a room issue or whether the Neumann KH750 would be a better integration with the MA1 software?

[Wonks]

Have you tried operating the 'phase' (polarity) control on the sub to see if that fills out the low mids?

[dickiefunk]

Hi Wonks. Yes I’ve tried this.

[Matt Houghton]

I'm a bit late to this thread, OP. But I felt it worth asking how much of the time you actually use that vocal booth. Because if you leave the door open when it's not in use (eg. when mixing) then your room is not L-shaped nor (quite) so small.

[dickiefunk]

Hi Matt, The door is closed in the picture and it opens into the room which would make it even smaller.

[dickiefunk]

I've been doing a little more experimenting in my room as the Eve TS108 has separate filters for the satellites and the sub itself. I'm finding I'm getting more even low mids if the Eve sends a full range signal to the KH120's and then set the subs separate filter to 80hz. This means the KH120's are working in full range and the upper frequency of the sub is limited to 80hz. I am hearing more clarity on bass guitar notes and other instruments in this bandwidth.
I would like to measure this with REW and one of my Rode NT55's with omni capsule but I don't have the calibration file to do so. Would this still be possible if I don't have the calibration file?

[Drew Stephenson]

Well, you won't get an 'absolute' measure without a calibration file, but you can certainly get comparable before and after measurements.

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

I recently did a room measurement using REW to get a rough idea of how my speakers are performing in my room. I only had a Behringer ECM 8000 and the calibration file for this mic to use.
The first image shows my KH120's by themselves and the second is with the KH120's + the EVE TS108 sub :-

KH120's



KH120's + Eve TS108



I've been considering either changing my sub to the KH750 DSP or change my complete setup to a single pair of KH150's. Also, the new Palmer Orbit 11's look quite interesting.
I'm new to using REW and understanding what these measurements actually mean so would really value advice please.

[Martin Walker]

Hi Richard!

Well my first of the cuff reaction would be that sadly, your sub doesn't seem to indicate any low end reinforcement at all - perhaps it would benefit from a higher output level, and/or different room placement.

However, apart from that large 80Hz dip (a typical feaure of most smaller rooms - mine's at 90Hz, and these can generally be flattened out by more bass trapping), your response seems to about +/-5dB across the rest of the range, which isn't too bad, and could relatively easily be flattened using software correction like the ubiquitous Sonarworks.

Do beware though that individual Behringer ECM8000 'measurement' mics can exhibit wild differences in response above 1kHz - borrowing a calibrated measurement mic would give you a more accurate picture of your high end.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220706044 ... g/2009/07/

[Hugh Robjohns]

Well my first of the cuff reaction would be that sadly, your sub doesn't seem to indicate any low end reinforcement at all.

Well... it's adding 10dB below 30Hz...

I'm not usually a fan of subs in small rooms, or any inadequately treated rooms. And it's clear that your sub isn't really doing anything useful — at least as measured in the mic's location.

However, if you're looking to upgrade, there is a fair argument of the KH750, since not only would that replace your existing sub, it would also add DSP correction to your KH120s.

And I'd think hard about some effective bass trapping — which you could install before splashing out on a new sub.

[Drew Stephenson]

And the other thing to do is experiment with your sub positioning. The better you can get that before doing any kind of software correction then the easier that job will be.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks for advice. I've started to try different filter settings on the TS108 and KH120's. I've found I'm getting a flatter measurement when the KH120's are playing full range without the 80hz hpf from the sub. The TS108 also has other filters that limit how high it goes. I have this set to 100hz.
I don't expect to sort the room modes out with DSP but it could be helpful to smooth out the peaks and dips.

If I went with the KH750dsp it would need to go under my desk where my existing sub is which isn't ideal. I've had a look at the REW measurements of my KH120's by themselves and I'm not sure if the measurements with the TS108 sub are a little better?

From a listening perspective the TS108 does make a noticeable difference. Bass does sound deeper and you can really feel kick drums and the overall bass frequencies sound like they reach a lot deeper though it doesn't look like this on the REW measurements

[Hugh Robjohns]

Try moving the measurement mic...

[Studio Support Gnome]

A bit late to party .

Drew hit the nail on the head.

Technically , with custom designed and fitted furniture and bass trapping , bottom right corner across the angle , with bass trapping behind , Atkinson diet to allow chair to fit between desk and booth door , reflection panel on either wall of booth facing in , big cross corner binary amplitude panel in 150mm deep absorber and backed wit lip mass . , broadband absorption on rear of door and wall end in alcove . And corner trapping across ceiling to wall interfaces . On outside of booth .

This should optimise scope of reflection free zone and offer more LF damping than you have now , .

Ultimately it’s polishing a turd with a Ceramic Shield product but , you did ask what the best answer was .

Better answer . Move house , get a bigger better room. Or better still , two bigger better rooms

[Hugh Robjohns]

With apologies to Mr Nicholson, "You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded...,you want me on that wall—you need me on that wall"

...or something like that...

[Studio Support Gnome]

;D ;P

[Martin Walker]

From a listening perspective the TS108 does make a noticeable difference. Bass does sound deeper and you can really feel kick drums and the overall bass frequencies sound like they reach a lot deeper though it doesn't look like this on the REW measurements

Well as Hugh pointed out, the sub does seem to have added a huge 10dB peak at 23Hz (I assumed this was a measurement anomaly, since the sub didn't seem to have reinforced/extended your response below 80Hz or so where subs normally do their thang).

However, if this is a true rendition of the measurement, then you will 'feel' kick drums more, but a sub that generates one-note frequency isn't doing its job properly.

[tacitus]

Just going back to your vocal booth door; we’re having our bathroom done at the moment and our plumber pointed out that any door can technically open in or out, left or right. Don’t hesitate to investigate the pros and cons of all options. It doesn’t cost much to alter the hang, and you can probably do it yourself for nothing but time.

Not saying it’ll be magic, but don’t ignore it, either. And by extension, there may be a better configuration for your whole vocal booth. We all tend to regard the product of our planning, spending and labour as more fixed than an outsider would. Zero-based planning, every time!