Cubase, Logic or Pro Tools?

[ph1]

Hi all, I work in a Further Education college. We are currently reviewing which of these three software packages to use as our main recording and MIDI sequencer. Many of my colleagues are arguing that Cubase has seen its day, and that Pro Tools and Logic are industry standard. Personally i can see the user merits of all three. I have done lots of searching on the internet to see if there are any kind of stats to which is Industry standard, but have struggled to find anything, though i did know it was a long shot.

If anyone knows of any relevant information could you please point me in the right direction, or please share your thoughts.

many thanks.

[spumph]

I'd stongly argue that Cubase has not 'had it's day', IMHO it is every bit the package Logic is (and not confined to expensive Macs).
If a differentiation is to be made it really should be between Cubase/Logic and Pro-tools.

Pro-tools only now seems to be catching up with the others on the MIDI side, though of course it's the Daddy as far as audio is concerned.

This, as you can see is far from an in depth critique however.....read the SOS reviews and see which floats your boat.

Simon

[themarqueeyears]

Depends what you want to teach.

Logic is great for MIDI and the EXS sampler is fantastic, the notation is great for composing.

BUT the audio on Logic is bloody aweful, has been for years since it was bolted onto Logic 3 which was a MIDI program really.

Cubase 4 and now 5 are truly fantastic for audio and mixing, sound stunning and are based on fresh code.

Tools HD IS an insustry std. PT Le is simply a PITA to use.

If I had the choice, I'd go Cubase 5 - it really is a truly fab DAW and now getting quite away ahead of the pack, bar PT HD of course.

I use all three but way prefer C5.

My 2 cents

Trebor

[Steve Hill]

Pro-tools only now seems to be catching up with the others on the MIDI side, though of course it's the Daddy as far as audio is concerned.

Yes - if you want to spend £10k or so on a PTHD system, and not the crippleware that is PTLE, available free with any overpriced, mid-quality Digidesign box and unusable with anything else, and which rations track count and does not have plug-in delay compensation and so on and so forth.

I don't imagine our friend's college-funded budget runs to buying everyone an HD system though.

Beyond that - Logic Pro has a street price of £170 (educational discounts will be less). Cubase 5 is £500. Logic Pro is now dongle free - an issue when students are prone to "borrow" the dongle (for which Steinberg's policy is never to compensate, they just make you buy another copy).

Logic includes a sampler with 13,000 instruments pre-loaded, Garage Band loops, and several very usable soft-synths etc. Some of its own plug-ins, notably Compressor, Space Designer reverb and Delay Designer are up there with any of the competition. (When Space Designer was first launched as an optional plug-in it cost nearly £500!).

I am not familiar with any improvements to Cubase in the latest version.

I agree Logic is platform-specific to Macs, which could be a deal-breaker.

BUT the audio on Logic is bloody aweful, has been for years since it was bolted onto Logic 3 which was a MIDI program really.

That's just rubbish. Lots of professional studios all over the world are built around Logic. I've been playing with it since v.2. It's ability to turn audio into a string of 1's and 0's is no different to any other package. Largely, this is down to the quality of the converters being used.

If you mean the workflow and usability, rather than the audio quality, that's just a matter of learning how to use it properly. It's different to some other packages, but so what?

[Aliweasel]

We use Cubase Studio 4 here at school and for teaching the Music Technology it's got everything we need. We still teach multi-tracking on a Mackie 24*8 and Tascam MX-2424 (plus a load of outboard gear) so Cubase's Control Room (full version only) isn't required for our studio. I still record our regular concert series using Studio 4 but that's straight to stereo so we don't need anything more than a 2in/2out card (Edirol UA25 EXs all round).

I reckon if you're running a studio for close mic coursework then the full version of Cubase plus a good multi-in interface will be needed. If it's just arrangement and composition you need then Studio 4 (or 5 as you'd get now) I reckon is perfectly suitable for the job and cheaper than the full version of Logic at educational price.

ProTools HD is a joy to track with but (thinking long term) the third party plug-ins are more expensive (TDM/RTAS as opposed to VST, of which there is a lot available to download) as is the hardware. For teaching purposes a multi-track studio could have one rig but for a classroom it's money down the drain as it won't get used to it's fullest extent, unless you have several studios that are in constant use to kit out.

I've had very little experience with Logic but if you've already got Macs then it's a good thing for students to familiarise themselves with as it is very popular.

What platform do you run at the moment? PC or Macs?

[ph1]

We use both PC and Mac. Both can handle any of these three programs. I am happy to use all three as i believe this will include a greater learning experience for the students, with there being plenty of units the packages can be used on. I also believe there to be an added argument for using Cubase, in that this is a popular program where students start their learning in sequencing and recording. Thus this is widley the software of choice for many learners. And having the software in college enables them to transport working projects back and from home to college.

I believe some of my colleagues maybe just want to use the software they use for personal use, but i don't believe this is any way to structure a curriculum.

Many thanks for all those who have shared on this topic, is very interesting.

[Steve Hill]

We use both PC and Mac. Both can handle any of these three programs.

You have not been able to run Logic on a PC for about 5 years now, since Apple acquired the company. You can run older versions (up to v.5) but you will not get any support.

[themarqueeyears]

Steve

Sorry I'll be more specific, first I don't need to learn logic, I've used Emagic since Creator on the Atari up to Logic Pro 8 on my iMac that's about 20 years. I know Logic as well as any person.

So let me restate IMHO the audio on Logic is bloody aweful. The implimentation is terrible compared to Cubase/Nuendo and it there is something about the sound of audio in Logic that I have come to hate, especially since I started using Cubendo on my main mix rig.

The code needs re-writing, if Apple ever do it then I will once again consider it as my main mix DAW until then it makes a great scratch writing pad on the iMac.

Sorry if that doesn't fit with your universe

Best
Rob

[Dave Rowles]

We all have preferences. I've heard great audio mixes stuff produced solely in logic, I've heard great audio mixes produced solely in cubase, and of course I've heard great audio mixes produces in pro-tools. To say that one is "bloody awful" compared to the others is exaggerating IMHO.

Personally I just can't get on with the latest versions of Cubase. I find the way it deals with windows cluttered and slow compared to logic. That's not a criticism of the sound or quality of cubase, I just find it slow to operate. I used cubase upto the last versions of VST and then made a decision to switch to logic due to price at that particular point of a mac laptop vs a windows laptop. It's changed again now, but back then a similar spec windows laptop was a little bit more expensive than a macbook pro.

Stats of who uses what would be a little hard to come by. But those 3 are used across the industry by various people and all 3 can produce great sounding results. It's more about how the 3 programs fit the way your head works, and how easy you find using the on screen interface.

[narcoman]

Steve

Sorry I'll be more specific, first I don't need to learn logic, I've used Emagic since Creator on the Atari up to Logic Pro 8 on my iMac that's about 20 years. I know Logic as well as any person.

So let me restate IMHO the audio on Logic is bloody aweful. The implimentation is terrible compared to Cubase/Nuendo and it there is something about the sound of audio in Logic that I have come to hate, especially since I started using Cubendo on my main mix rig.

The code needs re-writing, if Apple ever do it then I will once again consider it as my main mix DAW until then it makes a great scratch writing pad on the iMac.

Sorry if that doesn't fit with your universe

Best
Rob

well, you can make your comments - but it doesn't mean it's true.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the audio in Logic, and considering the likes of Alan Meyerson, Alan moulder and Dave Pensado do amazing film score, rock work and RnB mixes on it (as well as PT on other projects) should be a clue to it's capabilities. I regularly use Logic for pulling together score sessions..... and I'm telling ya - I wouldn't risk 6 figure budgets on something who's audio is dodgy.

Or cubase, or nuendo or protools, or DP etc etc and especially not Seq!!

anyway OP: Your friends are a bit out of touch. For semi standardisation in studios - fair enough - PT. Even in its crappy hardware LE version although the s/w is great). For gret facilities in MIDI and a more than competan mix experience - ANY of them. Remote Control (Hans Zimmers place, nee Media V) has oodles of Cubase everywhere.

In 2009 it really doesn't matter which way you go, so I'd suggest go with whatever fits your budget AND has a reasonable chance of being "across the board". That - to me - says PT and/or Logic.

[Glasgene]

The choice I think is simple CUBASE . it runs happily (almost happily now) on both PC and MAC using near enough any soundcard.

Another factor is that some students will possibly have access to a MAC but most will more than likely have access to a PC .. plus the fact that you can buy Cubase in a number ways from entry level to the full program added to that the bonus of educational discounts.

I have used Pro Tools, Cubase and Logic.. and from experience yes PT is great for audio but Cubase 4 was a turning point for Steinberg it has been super stable for me and the audio functionality is second to none hit points and warping are a dream come true ... for all the studios I have been too Logic is near enough the standard, but I'm sure anyone who uses Cu and Logic would agree that Cubase has the edge with managing and editing audio .. on the other hand the plug ins that come with Logic beat both Cu and PT hands down.

[ceejay]

Confuse everyone - buy Samplitude. Unbeatable.

[themarqueeyears]

OK - the bit that is "bloody aweful" is the way the audio is implimented inside the program. The lack of sample accurate editing in the arrange window, the audio pool architecture is also terrible, esp. compared the the way Cubendo handles it's audio pool.

However the audio quality in Logic is to me ears (recording with a HEDD 192 monitoring with an Avocet into 0300's in a treated room) "less focused and more 2D" WHY I don't know I don't code DSP.

I was SHOCKED when I moved to Cubase 4 at the difference and I mean SHOCKED!!

I konw both these programs backwards forwards and inside out - so this difference is a reality in my universe.

As forPro's that use Logic, well people get locked into that Logic on a Mac mentality "nothing can be better" I was like that until I did some sessions on Nuendo on a PC.

Then I took a gamble and bought C4 on a powerful PC workstation and that's when I saw the light, and relagated Logic to an iMac (I still use Loigc/garage band to compose)

As I say "maybe" one day Apple will sort Logic out and re-write the code, and bring the program into the 21st century.

Until then I try to use the best tools available within my budget.

As ever YMMV

Best
Trebor

[JamesSimpson]

Perhaps your mindset is just more appropriate to the cubase way of working, i use both but prefer logic's handling of audio.

There is sample accurate editing in the arrange window, its a little unfair to comment on older versions of software in a thread asking about which new software to buy, it will just confuse people if you say it doesn't have a feature (the older versions don't) when the version they are likely to buy does have it.

You may as well bitch about the fact that apples used to be more red, indeed they may have done but it makes little difference on what apple i am going to buy today.

[John Willett]

None of these - go for Samplitude.

Multiple Educational licenses are easy and if the dongle gets lost or stolen, they can send you a replacement at reasonable cost (£100 I think) and you do *not* have to buy the software all over again like you do with Cubase (Steinberg).

[muzines]

OK - the bit that is "bloody aweful" is the way the audio is implimented inside the program. The lack of sample accurate editing in the arrange window, the audio pool architecture is also terrible, esp. compared the the way Cubendo handles it's audio pool.

Sounds like you are thinking of older versions of Logic - LP8 was rebuilt at it's core to support sample accurate placement, and sounds better and tighter as a result.

Can't comment on the audio pool stuff, as I haven't really used recent versions of Cubase (nor do I wish to.)

However the audio quality in Logic is to me ears (recording with a HEDD 192 monitoring with an Avocet into 0300's in a treated room) "less focused and more 2D" WHY I don't know I don't code DSP.

I was SHOCKED when I moved to Cubase 4 at the difference and I mean SHOCKED!!

Hmm. If it's *that* noticeable - can I ask - which version of Logic are you referring to, and what is your pan law set to in Logic?

[Glasgene]

My comments were based on Logic 8 must admit my Pro Tools experience was PT 6.

Your right though James it is whatever suits you most, when I work with Logic I often find myself saying I could do that so much quicker in Cubase.

From the point of learning; a student will gain a lot from being able to put their learning in to practice in their own time and unless they happen to own a Mac they won't be able to do that with Logic.

[themarqueeyears]

If you read my posts carefully I stated that I use the very latest version of Logic Pro 8 now on an iMac.

It what way was Logic re-written? it has the same "bolted" on audio objects in the enviroment as it always had. I know Logic inside out, I know it's limitations and why they exist.

For those that haven't tried Cubase 5, do so, it's a relavation, well it was for me.

IMHO (remeber MHO) Logic doesn't not sound as clear, 3D and pristine as Cubase 5, WHY I have know idea, I don't code DSP.

If your happy with Logic, be happy, don't let a post on a forum rock your boat. However to the OP try out Cubase 5 it's superb, don't fall for the idea that Logic Pro 8 is an industry std. PT HD is, but def. not LP8 not in my book or my experience anyway.

Nuff said by me.
Best
Trebor

[sonics]

Students need access to affordable legal software to use at home.
I believe Cubase, Sonar and Logic all come in versions at around £100? There are also audio interfaces available as cheap as £80 that come bundled with Cubase LE.

Any of the three products (with proper instruction) will give them the skills they need to use any one of them.

The PC hardware is generally much cheaper, of course. A machine to learn on can be pickup up second-hand for £50-100.

[muzines]

If you read my posts carefully I stated that I use the very latest version of Logic Pro 8 now on an iMac.

Ok. Then your sample accuracy statement was false - it was that that threw me...

It what way was Logic re-written? it has the same "bolted" on audio objects in the enviroment as it always had. I know Logic inside out, I know it's limitations and why they exist.

Sure - just because internal things are improved to incorporate certain features, doesn't mean the external stuff has to change.

The entire internal timing mechanism was upgraded to support two features which were asked for for a long time - namely, longer song lengths (the data structures and optimisations had to change for this) and to also support sample accuracy (previously, Logic could only place audio at tick resolutions). This is also why the song format had to change, and why you cannot open LP8 songs in earlier versions of Logic.

For those that haven't tried Cubase 5, do so, it's a relavation, well it was for me.

Maybe. Trouble is I'm coloured with many years of every time I had to use Cubase it was so appallingly designed it was, to borrow your phrase, "SHOCKING"...

(And I'm not talking about familiarity issues, BTW)

But as I say, I haven't used recent versions so I'll refrain from mentioning what I expect it to be..

IMHO (remeber MHO) Logic doesn't not sound as clear, 3D and pristine as Cubase 5, WHY I have know idea, I don't code DSP.

As always, YMMV, but I've mostly only heard positive comments over the sound of Logic, and very few negative ones. And over the years, the people who have said Logic has a "flat, 2D sound" have been running with a pan law of 0dB, which can be quite challenging to mix with. When LP7 hit and had a changeable pan law for the first time, I'd suggest people set to -3dB or compensated and almost everyone was like "wow!".

I don't know offhand what LP8 defaults to, but do check the pan law setting - I'd be curious as to what you have it set to (you didn't answer my question) and if it's at 0dB, does setting it to one of the other options change anything for you...

If your happy with Logic, be happy, don't let a post on a forum rock your boat. However to the OP try out Cubase 5 it's superb, don't fall for the idea that Logic Pro 8 is an industry std. PT HD is, but def. not LP8 not in my book or my experience anyway.

It seems to me that it's mostly Logic or PT in pro studios, DP is still strong with sound-to-picture composers and some USA setups, and Cubase is mostly found in europe in small studios or home setups, probably equally with Logic, with PT LE and DP lagging behind.

Just a rough summary of my perspective - I have no stats to back up any of this. Oh, and now Logic has know made further inroads into the entry level crowd who just want it because it's more expensive than GB, even though GB might be more suited to them.

[Ed_J90]

LOGIC IS BEST (post closed)

Logic is the best all-rounder midi / audio / visual for me....

Cubase gives me nightmares of when I first used it trying to get midi and audio to sync up I know its changed now but im soooooooooooo scared from it !!

Protools is just an Audio machine for me and I require midi almost all the time in conjunction with audio.

[Neil C]

Another factor is that some students will possibly have access to a MAC but most will more than likely have access to a PC .. plus the fact that you can buy Cubase in a number ways from entry level to the full program added to that the bonus of educational discounts.

To back that up - if you think the students will want to work on stuff at home, or might be inspired to buy a DAW for their private use, then learning only Logic will be less helpful for most of them because almost all of them will likely have a PC and not a Mac at home.

[G-Doubleyou]

After being a longtime Cubase user I have a simple policy for my business.

No Steinberg products on my Macs, they reside nicely on my PC though.

[Steve Hill]

OK - the bit that is "bloody aweful" is the way the audio is implimented inside the program. The lack of sample accurate editing in the arrange window, the audio pool architecture is also terrible, esp. compared the the way Cubendo handles it's audio pool....
I konw both these programs backwards forwards and inside out -

But possibly not to the point of ever looking at Logic 8, which does have sample accurate editing in the arrange window and has basically thrown out most of the bathwater and kept the baby as compared to previous versions.

The v.8 "Media" tab which accesses Audio files etc seem so work fine for anyone I've ever met, which includes some serious Logic users who like me go back to Atari/Notator days.

The general consensus is that v.8 does bring the program into the 21st Century.

I agree Nuendo is an excellent system.

[blacklight_uk]

I use Logic 8 and Pro Tools. The college I go to uses Logic 8 exclusively.

From my experiences, Logic 8 is a great tool for learning production, though Pro Tools has the edge over it for engineering.

Thing is though, Logic is still a fantastic all round program and has some very useable plugins. It's very hands-on in that everything is laid out in front of you and there are some really neat tricks in there too.

The audio gets slated when compared to Pro Tools but honestly, though I may be fairly new to production and engineering it has never bothered me. Nobody on a music tech course at college is going to complain about it.