Equipment for recording neighbour noise

[Sam Spoons]

On the technical side, if the noise is loud enough to annoy you, it's odd that it cannot be captured by a mic, unless it's really, really low frequencies (which you would perceive more as a vibration than a sound).

Nuisance noise, according to the EHO I had the conversation with, does not need to be loud, or even above the ambient noise, it simply has to be audible. The almost imperceptible but rhythmic 'thump' of the bass from the DJ in the marquee ½ a mile away was enough for him to say it was too loud. Even very quiet door closings or footsteps can be intrusive late at night but if it is just people conducting their normal lives in a flat where sound travels between floors that is clearly a different matter to people playing loud music or having shouting matches in the early hours. Context is everything

And almost certainly is not the preamp noise floor of the Zoom which is the problem, and what you are hearing is the ambient noise in you room.

Yes, probably.

But might it be that it's more of a perceptive issue, like you're trying to concentrate and suddenly there is a relatively faint but audible door slam which annoys you? Or do you hear it really loud? Because if you do, so it will even the cheapest microphone.

Yes, see above.

More detail would be useful Doveman please tell us what it is that disturbed you and what times of day/night it occurs. And, as I said above, keep detailed records, they will be much more useful in a court of law than uncalibrated noise meter readings or recording that demonstrate the 'nuisance noise' is below the ambient.....

[Doveman]

One thing to think about...

Do you own your property or is it rented? If you own it and ever come to sell it you will need to disclose to the prospective purchaser that you have had a dispute with your neighbour. Not disclosing it will leave you open to legal action from the new purchasers.

It is usually best to take a gentle and friendly approach to these issues - have you approached the neighbour and let them know about the problems? It sounds like they may have wooden floors rather than carpet. Sometimes people take up the carpet or install laminated floors without realising the noise issues for people living below. Some leases actually stipulate that floors must be carpeted for this reason.

If you want the environmental health department to consider this issue then you will either need to use their equipment to record the noise or hire similar standard equipment with a traceable calibration. I've just done a quick search and it appears that there are a number of companies that hire out suitable equipment packages.

I don't own my flat unfortunately, or I'd sell up and move. I'm a council tenant in a 1-bed flat on the 1st floor of a 3 storey block of 12 flats but I know at least some of the 2-bed flats on the floor above me are privately owned and possibly let out privately. The flat directly above me, at the back of the block, is No. 22 and the one next to that, at the front of the block, is No.21. I had the council investigate noise from No.22 a few years ago and it turned out that was privately owned and rented out and there wasn't much they could do, because at the time the lease was granted there was no stipulation about having carpets. They changed that a few years ago but it's not retrospective.

My block is also attached to the neighbouring block so there's a shared party wall and there's a lot of problems with noise travelling from the flats in that block too.

It's hard to know whether the people in No.22 are being deliberately noisy or not. When they walk about it sounds like they're deliberately stomping their heels on the floor and they always seems to be slamming cupboards and dropping things on the floor whenever they're stomping about but they're not playing loud music or anything like that, so they might just be elephants!

The screeching noise, which is probably water pipes, may be coming from a flat in the adjoining block as it's louder in my bedroom, which shares the party wall, than my living room. I made a 30s recording with the Zoom mic which I've shared here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LZwryI ... sp=sharing

I used the Zoom's compression for this recording, which probably hasn't done much good as it's boosted the hiss as well as the noise I'm trying to record but at least you can hear it.

I don't think I need to make a recording with professional calibrated equipment before environmental health will investigate. They should investigate based on reports and logs, it's just with this sort of intermittent noise it would be helpful to be able to play them a recording to prove I'm not a crazy person creating logs of imaginary noises!

[Doveman]

In the meantime there are various iPhone (and Android I assume) apps that do noise measurement - even my Apple Watch has it.

You can use these to get a noise level in your room as well as recording it.

I have found these apps to be pretty accurate and within a dB of professional level meters.

Thanks, I'll see what I can find for my Android phone but it has the same problem as the Zoom's built-in mic, i.e. quite a lot of hiss masking the noise I'm trying to record. I can't even use an external mic with my phone as the headphone/mic socket doesn't work, although I guess there might be some USB mics that would work.

[Doveman]

I was involved in monitoring sound/noise levels outside a wedding venue just outside Manchester. The problem I had was that what the EHO considered unacceptable 'nuisance noise' was below the level of the background so unmeasurable. Basically, if you could hear a beat or anything that resembled music it was too loud.

So recording or measuring the nuisance noise may not always be possible. Keeping a accurate and detailed log is essential though.

Yeah, it's tedious keeping logs in a home situation as it makes you focus on the noise even more, always feeling like you've got to be ready to make a note every time you hear something to convince the council that it's a problem.

I don't think the noise I want to record is unmeasurable though. It might not register as very loud on a SPL meter I guess, I'm not sure about that but it should certainly be recordable with the right equipment. I did have a problem with a neighbour letting her kid kick his football against the wall on the balcony all day and the noise that was making might have been hard to record, as it was a low-frequency thud, probably similar to the sort of thing you were monitoring.

[Doveman]

Since I don't live in the UK I have no opinion about the laws where you are, but the fellows here have indeed quite a lot of experience with that type of questions, and if they say that it's moot, it's most likely moot.

On the technical side, if the noise is loud enough to annoy you, it's odd that it cannot be captured by a mic, unless it's really, really low frequencies (which you would perceive more as a vibration than a sound).

And almost certainly is not the preamp noise floor of the Zoom which is the problem, and what you are hearing is the ambient noise in you room.

Dynamic mics (like a 58) aren't that great for high frequency noise as they roll off the highs, but once again it's hard to say what you mean by "high frequency". It seems unlikely that the sound that annoys you is entirely over the 13-15KHz threshold. You might fare a bit better with a condenser mic, which covers more than the entire audible spectrum, but again it's odd that you don't get anything usable with a 58. It has a cardioid pattern so it won't pick up much from rear and sides, but if you point it towards the neightbour flat, it should. You might try a more sensitive dynamic microphone (there's some), or one with an omni pattern.

But might it be that it's more of a perceptive issue, like you're trying to concentrate and suddenly there is a relatively faint but audible door slam which annoys you? Or do you hear it really loud? Because if you do, so it will even the cheapest microphone.

You may also to equalize and compress the recording a little bit to reveal more details, but if you start manipulating it too much it won't be really that valid even as indicative evidence..

I'm almost certain it's the Zoom's internal noise floor that's the problem, as there's nothing in my bedroom making any noise that would cause the hiss in my recording and the noise I'm trying to record is really quite loud and intrusive, certainly louder than a lot of ambient nature sounds that people might record, so I don't think the Zoom would be any good for that. The SM58 doesn't pick up the noise at all but I also don't get much, if any, hiss using the external input which makes me think the internal mic uses a different pre-amp. I really need a different external mic that is designed to pick up high frequencies though.

I've still got quite good hearing for high-frequencies, although I've also got tinnitus and auditory processing disorder, the latter of which makes it difficult to understand speech when there's a lot of background noise like in a busy pub.

Actually I've just used a frequency generator on my PC to compare with my recording and it seems that the noise I'm trying to record isn't high-frequency at all, it's around 400hz, which makes it even more strange that my SM58 isn't picking it up.

[Mike Stranks]

I apologise in advance that I shall be blunt...

The Zoom and an SM58 are nowhere near accurate - or neutral - enough to let anyone judge anything apart from, "Yes, that was some noise." And noise-meters are not worth pursuing in an amateur context.

Having been involved in an informal 'neutral third party' noise assessment a few years ago, the other aspect is that, of course, the aggrieved soon notice every sound and noise emanating from the complained-of premises.

I could go on about my experience, but it won't advance the discussion any.

My tuppence...

1) Once social isolation has ended try and face-to-face with the occupiers of the noisy flat. Not letter, email, phone-call, but talk. Have an acquaintance with you - not a family member - and try and keep it light and smiley, but being clear about the issues as you see them. Don't get into an argument... do your best to part on at least calm terms.

2) If you really want to get evidence follow James Perrett's advice and hire some proper kit and keep those logs.

[CS70]

I'm almost certain it's the Zoom's internal noise floor that's the problem, as there's nothing in my bedroom making any noise that would cause the hiss in my recording and the noise I'm trying to record is really quite loud and intrusive, certainly louder than a lot of ambient nature sounds that people might record, so I don't think the Zoom would be any good for that. The SM58 doesn't pick up the noise at all but I also don't get much, if any, hiss using the external input which makes me think the internal mic uses a different pre-amp. I really need a different external mic that is designed to pick up high frequencies though.

Actually I've just used a frequency generator on my PC to compare with my recording and it seems that the noise I'm trying to record isn't high-frequency at all, it's around 400hz, which makes it even more strange that my SM58 isn't picking it up.

This sounds stranger and stranger. You wouldn't get anything even vaguely forensic (or usable for your specific goal in this instance), but certainly you should get sound, especially if the noise is at 400Hz. I did use a Zoom once (don't remember the model but I think it was in the same H series) and while I wouldn't exchange the preamps for my Daking One or the Aphex 207D, I definitely got reasonable results.

And when shooting video I routinely record audio with cameras mic for alignment (in addition to a separate audio feed), which if anything must be worse than the Zoom, and you can clearly hear little noises well over any ambient noise.

Do you run the H6 from batteries? What is your gain setting? You positive you don't have the pad engaged? I read there are compressors on the unit, you positive they are disengaged? The recorder has different types of capsules, which ones are you using?

[CS70]

Don't get into an argument

This can be harder than getting a good recording...

[Rob Kirkwood]

Noisy/difficult neighbour is one of those things that can destroy the peace you expect in your own home - been there, got the t-shirt. In our case we spent quite some time talking to the neighbour, trying to get to know them, making friends - & then, out of the blue, something came up that we were able to help them out with.

So, as Mike says, the best possible way to resolve a problem like this is face-to-face without getting into an argument - but appreciate that sometimes this just isn't possible, in which case is moving an option for you?

One other thing that I don't think has been mentioned: In the UK if the noisy neighbour is a tenant they may well be in breach of their tenancy agreement ... but again that's another 'official' process, which may not work anyway.

Rob

[wireman]

Yeah, I probably can't afford the sort of equipment that would produce evidence that would stand up in court but hopefully it will be enough to convince the Council that there's a problem. The police told me they don't deal with noise nuisance and to phone the Council's out of hours service but when I phoned them they told me they don't have a noise nuisance out of hours service!

I would email the council and ask them if any measurements would prove useful and what equipment would be minimally acceptable.

Meanwhile keep records of the nuisance.

[DanDan]

The tiny mics on phones and zooms and the cheap measurement mics are all very noisy.
Ultimately though an SPL log of incoming noise is bound to be more useful than a strange audio recording. There are a few iOS options pretty much of the Pro level. You could demo SoundMeter by FaberAcoustical or SPLMeter Pro by studiosixdigital.com

[John Willett]

Meanwhile keep records of the nuisance.

Keeping a diary of every tome it happens and a descrioption is essential.

This is what the Council will take most note of.

[Doveman]

I apologise in advance that I shall be blunt...

The Zoom and an SM58 are nowhere near accurate - or neutral - enough to let anyone judge anything apart from, "Yes, that was some noise." And noise-meters are not worth pursuing in an amateur context.

Having been involved in an informal 'neutral third party' noise assessment a few years ago, the other aspect is that, of course, the aggrieved soon notice every sound and noise emanating from the complained-of premises.

I could go on about my experience, but it won't advance the discussion any.

My tuppence...

1) Once social isolation has ended try and face-to-face with the occupiers of the noisy flat. Not letter, email, phone-call, but talk. Have an acquaintance with you - not a family member - and try and keep it light and smiley, but being clear about the issues as you see them. Don't get into an argument... do your best to part on at least calm terms.

2) If you really want to get evidence follow James Perrett's advice and hire some proper kit and keep those logs.

I agree that I'm probably more sensitive to noise as a result of this ongoing problem but I think I'm still objective enough to be able to distinguish noises that I notice but aren't that loud and other people wouldn't be bothered by from noises that are very intrusive and would annoy most people, like screeching water pipes that wake you up at 2am and the thud of a football being kicked against the wall for hours on end. I'd hoped the latter had stopped after I spoke to my neighbour at No.21 about it but unfortunately it's just started up again after a few days of relative peace and quiet. I say relative, because there's still been the noise from the neighbours directly above me at No.22 stomping about and slamming doors but at least that only happens for a short time each time and it doesn't do my head in as much as the constant thud of the football for hours.

Clearly the Zoom and the SM58 are useless for recording these noises, so I'll return the Zoom. I don't think there's any point spending hundreds of pounds hiring professional equipment though, as the council aren't going to accept that as evidence when I have the key to the case and could have tampered with it. I don't think there's anything magic about the professional noise recorders, they're just calibrated, combine an SPL meter with a noise recorder and some features for analysing the recordings.

So I'm sure there must be a cheaper mic and pre-amp/USB soundcard I could buy that would record the sound to at least prove I'm not imagining it. If no mic can record the noise, then hiring the professional calibrated recorder for a week isn't going to help me and if I can get a recording of the noise, then together with my logs it will help me persuade the council that the noise is unreasonable and get them to investigate further.

[Doveman]

This sounds stranger and stranger. You wouldn't get anything even vaguely forensic (or usable for your specific goal in this instance), but certainly you should get sound, especially if the noise is at 400Hz. I did use a Zoom once (don't remember the model but I think it was in the same H series) and while I wouldn't exchange the preamps for my Daking One or the Aphex 207D, I definitely got reasonable results.

And when shooting video I routinely record audio with cameras mic for alignment (in addition to a separate audio feed), which if anything must be worse than the Zoom, and you can clearly hear little noises well over any ambient noise.

Do you run the H6 from batteries? What is your gain setting? You positive you don't have the pad engaged? I read there are compressors on the unit, you positive they are disengaged? The recorder has different types of capsules, which ones are you using?

You can listen to my recording here to confirm that it's around 400hz.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LZwryI ... sp=sharing

I have been running the H4 from batteries but they're brand new. Mic gain was 80 I think and I did have the compressor engaged for that recording just to boost the sound to make it easier to hear without having to crank the volume up when playing it back. I don't think the H4 has different capsules.

The recording doesn't represent the situation accurately at all, as in reality there's no background noise/hiss and the noise I'm trying to record is about 10 times louder than it appears to be on the recording. Imagine the sound that's made when someone drags a chair on the floor in the same room that you're in and then muffle it a bit and that's about how loud it sounds in my flat. The closest example I could find is this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmaaOSMkB94

[Doveman]

Noisy/difficult neighbour is one of those things that can destroy the peace you expect in your own home - been there, got the t-shirt. In our case we spent quite some time talking to the neighbour, trying to get to know them, making friends - & then, out of the blue, something came up that we were able to help them out with.

So, as Mike says, the best possible way to resolve a problem like this is face-to-face without getting into an argument - but appreciate that sometimes this just isn't possible, in which case is moving an option for you?

One other thing that I don't think has been mentioned: In the UK if the noisy neighbour is a tenant they may well be in breach of their tenancy agreement ... but again that's another 'official' process, which may not work anyway.

Rob

Unfortunately I'm a disabled council tenant so there's not really any prospect of moving unless I win the lottery or rob a bank! I had to take the council to court a few years ago just to get them to agree that I had some medical need to move because of the noise, or at least my sensitivity to it, but that only gave me the right to bid on any 1-bed council flats that become available each week (most weeks they're aren't any), without having any idea if they might be even worse and I've only been placed in Band C, so I'd always be outbid by the thousands of people on the waiting list with higher priority in Bands A and B.

I don't know how I'd find out if the noisy neighbours are council tenants, or leaseholders, or private tenants. I can hardly ask them and if they say they're leaseholders or private tenants, ask them for the details of their mortgage company or their landlord so I can make a complaint.

Even if they're council tenants, the council is pretty useless and they've said in the past (not to me, in response to a question from someone else at a council meeting) that they can't / won't take action against a tenant whose kids were causing a noise nuisance as the courts would never evict someone for that.

[Doveman]

I would email the council and ask them if any measurements would prove useful and what equipment would be minimally acceptable.

Meanwhile keep records of the nuisance.

I will keep logs but I find it's difficult to remember to record when the noise stopped. If someone's been banging for half an hour, particularly if there's intermittent breaks for a minute or two, I find it doesn't register when the noise has actually not occurred for 10 minutes, so it can be 30 minutes before I realise that I haven't heard it for a while and I have to guess when it stopped.

[Doveman]

The tiny mics on phones and zooms and the cheap measurement mics are all very noisy.
Ultimately though an SPL log of incoming noise is bound to be more useful than a strange audio recording. There are a few iOS options pretty much of the Pro level. You could demo SoundMeter by FaberAcoustical or SPLMeter Pro by studiosixdigital.com

I've only got an Android phone, so I don't know if the mics are better on the iPhone but I found a few Android apps.

I tried this one first but it seemed a bit oversensitive/inaccurate as it registered me clicking my fingers from 2 feet away as 75db and shows an average of 30db when I'm not making any noise. https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... ibel&hl=en

This one was about the same, around 70db and 26db average.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... eter&hl=en

This one only registers the same noise as 59db and show an average when I'm not making any noise of 14db, which seems more probable but the meter doesn't match the Max shown as the needle only hits 30 or 40.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... eter&hl=en

[Sam Spoons]

Ambient noise on a typical living room it likely to be around 30-40dBA so it may be the first is closest to being accurate.

[Doveman]

Ambient noise on a typical living room it likely to be around 30-40dBA so it may be the first is closest to being accurate.

Ah OK, thanks. The second app has an option to display a table of typical noises (from breathing up to gun shots) and highlights the closest option to the current noise level and that shows Conversation as 60db so I just guessed that clicking my fingers was about the same volume as a normal conversation. That feature is totally inaccurate anyway, as it sometimes shows 30db Whisper when I click my fingers and sometimes 60db, whilst at the same time the meter shows 73db. The table can't even be showing the current average, as that doesn't go above 26db.

[Happyandbored]

Re: "I did have a problem with a neighbour letting her kid kick his football against the wall on the balcony all day"

Have you considered that maybe your expectations of peace and quiet are perhaps a tad unrealistic?

Re: "The recording doesn't represent the situation accurately at all, as in reality there's no background noise/hiss and the noise I'm trying to record is about 10 times louder than it appears to be on the recording."

For sure, the Zoom H4n pres aren't amazing, but they're not that bad. The fact the recorder's self noise is significantly louder suggests the sound just isn't really all that loud from the location you're recording. Sure, it's probably annoying.

All the sounds you report are fairly normal day-to-day household activity. As far as pipework goes, maybe take up the issue with your landlord as clearly your flat is poorly sound insulated, but it's not your neighbours fault. People need to walk around, use water and exercise.

Get some custom earplugs with filters or noise cancelling headphones and put some relaxing music on.

From my bedroom I can hear traffic on the main road pass by. From my studio, I can hear birds tweeting loudly outside, the hot water boiler in the cupboard and neighbours outside. This is because my boiler and windows are shit, not because traffic should be banned or birds are evil recording ruining fluffy little gits. My previous flat, I used to get woken up by traffic and the door slamming outside because the walls were thin and crap. Stuck earplugs in, problem solved.

You live in London mate. Tedious bollocks like this is why music venues are always closing and inner-city outdoor gigs are a waste of money.

Nice pipe sample anyway. Going to steal it, low pass filter the hiss out and use it to make an ambient drone patch in my next track.

[CS70]

You can listen to my recording here to confirm that it's around 400hz.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LZwryI ... sp=sharing

I have been running the H4 from batteries but they're brand new. Mic gain was 80 I think and I did have the compressor engaged for that recording just to boost the sound to make it easier to hear without having to crank the volume up when playing it back. I don't think the H4 has different capsules.

The recording doesn't represent the situation accurately at all, as in reality there's no background noise/hiss and the noise I'm trying to record is about 10 times louder than it appears to be on the recording.

I can see what you mean, the hiss in that recording is unbearable, and very unlike my experience with the Zoom handheld recorder. According to to what I read "80" is about -8dB attenuation, so a bit high but still. The Zoom has also an automatic gain control - was that turned on? And I'd definitely turn off all compressors, all you might be doing is increasing the noise level as there's obviously no peaks to tame. Nevertheless, it seems that the H4 is either bad or too difficult to use, so definitely a good idea to return it.

[Doveman]

I can see what you mean, the hiss in that recording is unbearable, and very unlike my experience with the Zoom handheld recorder. According to to what I read "80" is about -8dB attenuation, so a bit high but still. The Zoom has also an automatic gain control - was that turned on? And I'd definitely turn off all compressors, all you might be doing is increasing the noise level as there's obviously no peaks to tame. Nevertheless, it seems that the H4 is either bad or too difficult to use, so definitely a good idea to return it.

The auto gain was off when I made that recording but I've made another couple of recordings when my room was quiet, both with the compression off and the mic level set to 80.

This is the recording with the built-in mic with loads of hiss
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T3HTti ... sp=sharing

and this is the recording with the SM58 with barely any hiss
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-yvA2r ... sp=sharing

So it would seem it's either faulty or the internal mic uses a poor quality pre-amp. Either way I'll send it back and look for a suitable mic and pre-amp that I can use with my PC. I've been thinking of buying an Aston Spirit for recording vocals but that's probably not ideal for recording general noise, not least because it's quite large and needs to be mounted. I think the professional recorders use a pencil mic but I don't know if they're highly directional shotgun capsules or if something cheap like this would do?
https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_c2_stereoset.htm

[Sam Spoons]

Anything recording or measuring ambient noise is likely to be an omni, something like this :- https://www.thomann.de/gb/sonarworks_xref_20_mic.htm

[CS70]

So it would seem it's either faulty or the internal mic uses a poor quality pre-amp.

Just to clarify (so that you can make your further choices better) - the preamplifier is the device that brings the tiny voltage produced by a microphone capsule to a higher amplitude - "line" level. It's very likely the Zoom uses the same preamps for both the built in capsules and the external mics (connected via the XLR input). So it may well be the built-in microphone capsules are faulty, or just noisy.

There's pro and cons to condensers - they capture more of the audible spectrum and may be more sensitive, but that means they also will pick more of natural ambience high-freqs. Anyways, nothing you can't remove with a low pass in post.

As for polar pattern, an omni will be better suited (but pay attention that it stays actually circular at most frequencies, not all "omni"s do - not meant at all as a commercial, but look for example at https://earthworksaudio.com/support/tec ... -response/).

There's still the fundamental question of whether or not is worth to make the effort, but of course you're the judge of that.

[Doveman]

Anything recording or measuring ambient noise is likely to be an omni, something like this :- https://www.thomann.de/gb/sonarworks_xref_20_mic.htm

Great, thanks.