Kayvon wrote:I haven't forgotten about this thread but I'm still doing some testing, most recently I've been trying the gain pots at 0dB instead of -15dB. Which has made things worse with regarding to inopportunely turning off.
That doesn't seem surprising since, for the same acoustic listening level, you'd have to run a lower input signal level input... And if it was previously borderline for the auto shut-down threshold, it would now be 15dB lower!
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Hah yes. I thought I'd better at least try though as I can't second guess what's going on in these boxes. I'd wondered if a little self noise might help proceedings heh
Hugh Robjohns wrote:The Auto-standby function is obviously totally dependent on the input signal level.
Consequently, if your monitoring chain gain-structure is awry, or you are in the habit of listening to music at very low levels for long periods*, then the speaker's auto-standby circuitry may well decide to shut down at inopportune moments.
*I find when I have my KH310s on for background music the input level is around -40dBu...
I'm starting to think I may just listen to music too quietly for the standby threshold. As there's seemingly nothing else I can do with regards to levels from the monitors, I can't reduce their output any lower.
I vaguely understand the concept of s/n ratio vis-a-vis digital level vs analogue attenuation but in practical terms will the monitors 'see' any difference between the output from my audio interface vs the same level coming from a monitor controller? Will it effectively be something like impedance? I'm sure there's an article on this very site about it somewhere...
There's one more thing I think I can try which is to have the speakers in network control mode but just don't use any of the eq functions and they won't permanently be plugged in to a router either. There's an option to adjust the standby level in the app. I guess I'm gonna have to dig out my measurement microphone!
I've had my KH 80 DSPs for a few months now and while the sound is fantastic, random sleep/wake occurrences are driving me nuts.
Initially it seemed like the signal measurement system used to go into and out of standby was completely random, and Sennheiser actually had me ship my units (which had been in stock at Sweetwater here in the U.S.) to their Connecticut service center so they could install some kind of mod (not sure exactly what it was supposed to do, but apparently issues with the U.S. mains service are known to create problems). According to the support tech, these mods are identical to ones installed (only now, I assume) at the factory, which of course raises the question of why they haven't done a recall for un-modified units.
Anyway, following the installation of the mods, the system has become much more reliable and less random, and as long as you don't set the standby voltage/SPL threshold too low in Neumann.Connect (which, as an aside, really ought not give you the option to do so, since low enough settings make it impossible for any circuit to separate signal from line noise). Spending HOURS running experiments and collecting data at different thresholds (with short standby times) I can safely say that it indeed seems both units function properly in this respect. The occasional false positive (a speaker waking while no signal is present), while also mildly annoying, isn't a big deal and may be due to remaining line noise (my cables are in a dense space).
However, I am still randomly experiencing a situation whereby one speaker or the other (but mostly my right one) will all of a sudden go into standby while a strong signal is (and has been for some time) present. At that point, the unit will (correctly) wake up again a few seconds later, but it's super annoying and I have no idea what's causing it. The protection circuit hasn't engaged, since the logo hasn't turned red before powering off/going to sleep.
All that's left for me to do now is to swap out XLR and power cables, swap the connections on my interface, and see if the problem still exists when I set the units to local (not networked) config and see if there's any difference. Turning off standby altogether does fix this issue (the speakers stay on 24/7), but that's not enough information to fully diagnose this. I will continue to collect data and email the Sennheiser support team, but if any of you have any relevant experiences, insights, or things you've heard from Sennheiser, I'd greatly appreciate hearing about them.
I think you'll find a lot more happy customers than ones with issues. Get the signal level driving the speaker in the ballpark and it's highly unlikely you'd have a problem,
Is there any downside to just not using the auto power feature and turning your whole system on before you use it and off when you finish? I do that with my KH120s and have never had a problem.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Great, thanks. I like the KH120s a lot but am considering getting the KH80s instead of KH120s for a small video studio at work. From all the reviews and discussion it seems the KH80s excel in the sound department but have had some issues in the clever digital trickery department.
I just purchased a pair of KH 80 monitors, they sound great, but my comments are regarding the auto standby feature, local control.
From the start one of the units failed to ever go into standby mode, ie the white light remained lit hours after I turned off my Apollo Twin. The other monitor shut itself down after roughly 90 minutes (white light not lit). So I swapped the two boxes, without swapping the input cords or power cords. In the new position the monitor still failed to power itself down (white light remained lit at all times).
As an aside, I'm grateful I don't have the opposite problem as reported above whereby the monitor shuts itself off while in playback mode, that would be intolerable. My issue is annoying, one feels that for the money spent the unit should function as designed, after all, the other monitor does.
The tech support at Sweetwater were kind enough to send a replacement, and guess what? A variation of the same problem, again I'm happy it doesn't ever reset itself during playback. But it does display a weird tendency to intermittently go to stand by appropriately, other times the white light remains lit, for hours. There's no pattern I can discern. Again, I swapped the boxes and the replacement monitor does the same thing in the new position on the desk.
To be clear, I am not attached to a network, this is a local control issue.
So it seems the problem has to do with threshold settings, both to power down to auto stand by, and for some unlucky customers, to fail to remain on despite a strong input.
Thoughts anyone?
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
If I pull the input cable from the monitor that keeps waking up inappropriately, it stays asleep, so yes, I think you are correct. This morning when I got up the monitor was in standby (white light not lit). A few minutes later I walked by my desk and noticed it had woken up (white light lit), so I wonder if that had something to do with turning on lights elsewhere in the house? Tomorrow AM I will check out that possibility.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Hmmm.... this auto power feature does seem to be a weak point, doesn't it? I can excuse, to a degree, false wake-ups caused by electrical noise on the line. But false shut-downs when in use is much more troubling...
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Only happened once in 18 months ish (I can't actually remember where I got these) so not overly concerned at the moment. I can always turn the auto-standby off - they're not exactly a heavy power drain.
I've basically written off my KH80s now. It's really difficult to pin down intermittent faults like these. To buy the speakers again from Neumann at a reduced price is not something I'm particularly keen on doing having coughed up already.
It's funny, at the time I was keen on investing in a set of speakers that would last for a good long period of time. The Neumanns didn't make it much past 2 years.
I do appreciate that things can go wrong over time and typically I'm not one to buy new technology when it's first been released but since it was Neumann I forewent that prudence. Ah well.
Perhaps my previous post is a bit toys out the pram. They still work as monitor speakers without the auto-standby mode but the other annoying thing for me was that they never implemented the negligible latency mode.
Since my cumulative latency (Ableton Live I'm looking at you) was causing me recording issues (still does tbh) I was intent on cutting out any latency wherever possible. The extra monitoring latency on top of everything I could've done without.
Sometimes I think music technology is less of a hobby and more of a battle
Any speaker relying on dsp correction will introduce latency, and in general any 'reduced latency mode will have to compromise the filtering precision, especially at the low end... so its inevitably introducing a different compromise and potentially degrading performance. Perhaps that's why it hasnt been implemented.
If latency is a problem analogue speakers are the solution (ideally with a high sample rate source)
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Hugh Robjohns wrote:Any speaker relying on dsp correction will introduce latency, and in general any 'reduced latency mode will have to compromise the filtering precision, especially at the low end... so its inevitably introducing a different compromise and potentially degrading performance. Perhaps that's why it hasnt been implemented.
I read they managed to get the latency low enough that it became in their take not worth implementing it.
I see on the SOS news page there's some new HEDD monitors that have a switch on the back to toggle on/off their linear phase mode. Pretty neat though maybe I'll wait for the mk3 versions with all that on a remote control
Here's an update for those still having trouble with their KH 80 DSPs when set to go into standby through the Neumann.Control iPad app:
(1) I spoke with the speakers product portfolio manager at Neumann Berlin. False positives (waking in the absence of a signal) are always going to be a bit of an issue on the KH 80 DSPs, since they don't have a third ground prong, which means they're more subject to line noise. Early U.S. units can be retrofitted with a mod (just a single resistor swap; more recent units already have the new part) to make them more resistant to this issue, but the problem will likely still persist. Increasing the standby threshold to something high (max is 30 dB SPL @ 1m) will help, and/or connecting them to your source via a KH 750 sub, which has a third ground pin, may significantly reduce false positives. Apparently, the standby functionality is only used by a relatively small portion of the user-base; most people either leave the monitors on all the time or turn them off and on manually with their racks of other gear. Also note that the iPad app will allow you to set very low thresholds that, as a matter of physics, will be impossible for the monitors to distinguish from line noise. So be sure to pick a reasonably high threshold.
(2) A bunch of problems seem to be caused by bugs in the Neumann.Control app and associated network traffic. If you're experiencing weird issues like random power-cycling or false negatives (i.e., the monitors going into standby notwithstanding the presence of a strong signal), you should factory-reset your monitors and then reconfigure them.
(3) To remove other network traffic as a possible cause of problems, I recommend buying a $50 wifi router with at least 2 ethernet jacks on the back (or use an old one you have lying around). Do NOT connect the router to the internet or the rest of your network and just connect your two monitors to the router via ethernet and connect your iPad to this isolated network via wifi.
(4) Next, delete the applicable System configuration from the Neumann.Control app. This will also delete all alignments associated with that System. It is critical that you then force-quit the app (by double-clicking the home button on your iPad and then swiping the app up and away). Through experimentation, I've discovered that if you don't quit the app before resetting the monitors, even if you've deleted a System configuration, the app sometimes keeps the configuration data cached in memory and they may get pushed back out to the monitors upon their reset, which will mean you'll have to go back to square one.
(5) After you have deleted the System configuration and force-quit the iPad app, you can then reset your monitors. Note that the directions in the manual for doing a factory reset are confusing: they say to toggle the SETTINGS switch up and down until the logo "flutters" red, but it's more like a slow flash. And, most importantly, before that flashing occurs, the logo will turn white while you are in the middle of this process, which might make you think the reset has failed. In actuality, however, you just need to continue toggling the switch through the period of the logo being white, and eventually the logo will flash red to indicate a successful reset.
(6) You can now use the Neumann.Control iPad app on this isolated network, connected only to the monitors, to set up a new System and apply any Alignment you wish. When that's done, disconnect the ethernet cables from the monitors, and they should work as intended without any weird behavior other than occasionally waking from sleep due to line noise.
Thus far, they have worked perfectly for over a week. I've ordered the new MA-1 alignment microphone, and plan to use that to re-align my monitors. Because the desktop app for the MA-1 lacks a number of features found in the Neumann.Control iPad app (including standby settings), I will take a screenshot of the resulting EQ settings and then recreate them in a manual alignment on my iPad.
Also I'm still debating whether to get the KH 750 DSP, which apparently people are raving about. A big concern is that, while the manual suggests that you should use the sub's digital (BNC) outputs when connecting to a DAW interface, there's no good way to control the monitor volume in real-time (and digital attenuation results in a loss of bit-depth and possible dithering artifacts), but running your signal through the analog inputs means a D>A>D>A>D>A signal path when used with the KH 80s...and that is a LOT of conversion. Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
adambier wrote:Also I'm still debating whether to get the KH 750 DSP, which apparently people are raving about. A big concern is that, while the manual suggests that you should use the sub's digital (BNC) outputs when connecting to a DAW interface, there's no good way to control the monitor volume in real-time (and digital attenuation results in a loss of bit-depth and possible dithering artifacts), but running your signal through the analog inputs means a D>A>D>A>D>A signal path when used with the KH 80s...and that is a LOT of conversion. Any thoughts on this would be welcome.
Given the accuracy of conversion nowadays I wouldn't be worrying about half a dozen conversions.
