about the Master Track

[amanise]

...Having said that, even if it was going beyond 0 in the mv meter, I still could not hear any distortion.
Also, garage-band does not tell you if it is clipped, you just see the red area.

OK - well if you check your previous posts for Wonks' one you get a different view on whether you should allow your meter levels to even be in the red zone. I'd go with that really. What I should have said is that I've never experienced any system damage on any of my kit. My DAW shows red clip marks which are easy to see. What I'd do is go on the side of caution with everything and keep everything as far down towards the green as you can. You'll get absolute tons of headroom that way! Not very helpful to not flag clips for you though...

[Wonks]

It's not a view, it's a fact.

There are a lot or areas of recording where its a matter of personal taste. but there are others where it's basic scientific fact about how things work, and that is one of them.

If you want to keep the recording 'clean' with no distortion when played back, the master needs to have no true peaks hitting 0dB. Ideally you'd keep it to -0.5dB, and if you want to compress to an mp3 or equivalent, then you'd need to go lower than that to avoid clipping during the audio compression process.

I'm aware that there are some commercial releases out there with instances of digital clipping (mainly in an attempt to be 'louder' than any other recording), but these sound bad and are hard work to listen to for any length of time.

But as GarageBand doesn't have meters with that sort of detail, you need to play safe (unless there are plug-in meters that you can use).

There are hundreds of technical features on digital recording, ADCs, DACs and gain staging on the SOS website, so it's well worth going through those.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I was told that it is ok if the Master track goes into orange, so long it doesn't go red. Where as, I was also told that it should always be green, and should not be orange because if so, it won't sound clean. (I'm using garage-band). I'm still trying to figure this all out. pls advise.

Garage Band's meters are un-scaled which is very unhelpful... but the change from green to yellow occurs at around -12dBFS, and for tracking and mixing purposes that's a very good target to aim for when setting peak levels. It will leave a reasonable headroom margin for brief transients that the meters aren't showing you but still be loud enough to audition without problems.

You can allow levels to rise into the orange area and they will still be clean — you only get distortion when you hit the (red) end-stops — but you are obviously at greater risk of accidental overloads if transient peaks occur.

Personally, I would aim for the green/yellow boundary and not worry too much if transient peaks push up into the yellows... but if I saw a lot of orange I'd definitely back things off a bit!

Also... bear in mind that there is no universal standard of colour coding for audio meters. Where one system's meters turn red, another's might still be yellow... so don't rely on colour descriptions. Only absolute numerical values (in dBFS or dBTP) have any validity in this context.

On most of the equipment I use (recorders, converters, DAWs etc) I customise my meters to show green up to -18dBFS, yellow up to -10dBFS, and red from -9dBFS upwards. I expect to see average levels around the green/yellow interface, with transients well into the yellows. I dont panic if there's an occasional red or two, but more than that and I usually turn the level down!

[RichardT]

Basically, as others have said, red on the master track (assuming red means > 0 dBFS in GarageBand) is an absolute no-no unless you’re are deliberately trying to clip your audio.

When it comes to finalising your tracks, you could try putting a limiter on the master bus. Limiters will give you a proper display of your signal levels, and they will also show you how ‘loud’ your track is and then allow you to adjust the loudness and the maximum peak levels.

The limiter will then ensure the peak level never exceeds the level you have set.

[James_AvA]

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies.
So, I have an update. In the song, the master track goes slightly in the red - as though touching it. I put on an mv meter in the master track, and it was going beyond 0, into the distortion area.
What happened was, a buddy of mine who is also a composer and songwriter, and a music producer (not that I am), came to my house to hear the song, to tell me if there is distortion. I'm so familiar with the song because I wrote it and heard it so many times, that I needed another person who is not familiar with the track at all to tell me if it is distorting, or if it sounds distorted.
When I first played it to him, he said he couldn't hear any distortion. And I had the volume of the track quite high as well, from my interface and monitor speakers, so that the song can be heard well.
Then he told me to just hear the music tracks, without the vocals, and when he heard it, he said there is no distortion. Then, I had him listen to the song again, with music and vocals, and he said there is no distortion.
It kinda brings to mind when people have told me that although it may show in the daw that it is clipping and is distorted, if it sounds good and you can't hear any distortion then it's good. Several people have told me this.
It does puzzle me his response, not because of the master track slightly touching the red area, but because of the mv meter going beyond 0 which automatically means digital distortion.
I think I will continue with the song and master it and then finish it. My only concerns are that once I export the song to disk and hear it on from my Mac computer, maybe there will be distortion then. My other concern is when mastering, when I will use the limiter for instance, to raise the entire volume of the track, there may be distortion there. Pls let me know your thoughts. God bless you all.

[James_AvA]

Something I forgot to add is that I asked my buddy if he thinks when using the limiter for instance, to raise the volume of the song, if it will be distorted, and he said he doesn't think so.

[RichardT]

Sometimes distortion is not obvious. It’s best to avoid it though, so I’d reduce the gain to keep the signal out of the red in the master bus.

Limiters avoid clipping distortion, so if you use one the signal won’t be distorted in that way.

[amanise]

.. also don't forget the advice you got earlier about playback format. I.e - you will need to leave room at the top for lossy formats like MP3. If you cut it too close to the red for a lossless format like WAV (I know that's probably swearing) you might tip over when it gets rendered down to MP3. It just happens that way. One word you will hear a LOT in all of this over time is "compromise".

[Sam Spoons]

Same advice here, keep the master out of the red, there is no sensible reason not to. You can always raise the level when you master but if it's going to .mp3 or other compressed format you need to master at least a couple of dB below 0dBFS (and we are having to make the assumption that the red illuminates at 0dBFS in GB).

[James_AvA]

Sometimes distortion is not obvious. It’s best to avoid it though, so I’d reduce the gain to keep the signal out of the red in the master bus.

Limiters avoid clipping distortion, so if you use one the signal won’t be distorted in that way.

That's good news for me, what you said about the limiter. From now on in my future recordings, of course I will avoid it, you live and learn I suppose.
It still baffles me how in the mv meter, it goes beyond 0 and that is the sign for distortion, and there is no distortion to be heard. I suppose that may have to do with what you said about the distortion not being obvious. I couldn't hear it either before my friend heard it, but I wanted to get a second opinion and it was that there is no distortion.

[James_AvA]

.. also don't forget the advice you got earlier about playback format. I.e - you will need to leave room at the top for lossy formats like MP3. If you cut it too close to the red for a lossless format like WAV (I know that's probably swearing) you might tip over when it gets rendered down to MP3. It just happens that way. One word you will hear a LOT in all of this over time is "compromise".

I was always planning on making it a WAV file because of the higher quality. Would that be ok then?
I don't need to go lower in that regard because I don't want it to be an mp3.
Also, as a heads-up, the master track I have it -0.3db. It's a good position to be.

[Wonks]

A bit of distortion will be subtle, it’s just the very peaks of the loudest transients that will get clipped at first. But it’s not a good way to work and you don’t need to work like that. Keep some headroom.

You need to look at true peak values, not just the sample peak values.

[Drew Stephenson]

If you're not using a true-peak limiter anywhere in your chain I'd recommend you do. Even if you don't use it for any obvious compression, something that will take care of inter-sample peaks and give you a true peak reading is always useful.

[EDIT Wonks and I crossed in the ether]

[RichardT]

.. also don't forget the advice you got earlier about playback format. I.e - you will need to leave room at the top for lossy formats like MP3. If you cut it too close to the red for a lossless format like WAV (I know that's probably swearing) you might tip over when it gets rendered down to MP3. It just happens that way. One word you will hear a LOT in all of this over time is "compromise".

I was always planning on making it a WAV file because of the higher quality. Would that be ok then?
I don't need to go lower in that regard because I don't want it to be an mp3.
Also, as a heads-up, the master track I have it -0.3db. It's a good position to be.

If the music is just for your use, that's fine, but if you intend to distribute it to streaming services then you should be aiming for peaks no higher than -1 dBFS.

[amanise]

...
I was always planning on making it a WAV file because of the higher quality. Would that be ok then?
I don't need to go lower in that regard because I don't want it to be an mp3.
Also, as a heads-up, the master track I have it -0.3db. It's a good position to be.

As some others said - distortions can be subtle and hard to hear at first

If you're 'never' going to want to stream it - that should work for you. But, if in a few years time you want to stream your Greatest Hits album - you might want a compressed format then? You wouldn't want to have to go back to the project file and re-render it another half a Db quieter so you could stream it without problems. By that time you'll have a lot of songs to do that to :- )

Think of it this way - if you don't turn it down to their acceptable levels yourself - the streaming platforms will do it for you when they convert it to their format. Then you can't tell how its going to sound.

Going out on a limb here, I think I'm not alone in working to an ideal final output of -1dB peak. Then after that comes The Great Loudness Debate. That's different, but related conversation.

[James_AvA]

A bit of distortion will be subtle, it’s just the very peaks of the loudest transients that will get clipped at first. But it’s not a good way to work and you don’t need to work like that. Keep some headroom.

You need to look at true peak values, not just the sample peak values.

Can you pls tell me what is a sample peak value? When you say true peak values, are you referring to the parts of the song that do peak in the master track?

[James_AvA]

If you're not using a true-peak limiter anywhere in your chain I'd recommend you do. Even if you don't use it for any obvious compression, something that will take care of inter-sample peaks and give you a true peak reading is always useful.

[EDIT Wonks and I crossed in the ether]

I don't know what a true-peak limiter is. The only limiter I know is the one that increases or decreases the overall volume of the track. Is the mv meter an example of a true-peak limiter?

[Wonks]

Standard peak meters show the highest recorded sample value within a given short time frame (though the very highest value recorded is often displayed as a numeric value).

But the Digital to Analogue Converter will reconstruct the original waveform, which means that even though the recorded peak value might be say -0.3dBFS, if the previous values were -20dBFS and -9dBFS, and the ones after -6dBFS and -11dBFS, you are probably looking at a sharp transient with a peak in-between the highest samples that’s over 0dBFS. Whilst the display in the DAW looks fine, the DAC will clip the top of the output waveform.

So to avoid this happening, you need a ‘true peak’ meter, which duplicates in software what the DAC does, and will give you the highest value of the reconstructed waveform, which on big transients, could be 3dB, or more over the peak sample value on big transients.

If you are mixing and leave plenty of headroom on the master bus, then you can do without a true peak meter. But if you are pushing your mix to be very close to 0dBFS, then you certainly need one to avoid the output clipping when played back.

[Wonks]

This video may help you to understand what’s going on. https://youtu.be/cD7YFUYLpDc

[RichardT]

If you're not using a true-peak limiter anywhere in your chain I'd recommend you do. Even if you don't use it for any obvious compression, something that will take care of inter-sample peaks and give you a true peak reading is always useful.

[EDIT Wonks and I crossed in the ether]

I don't know what a true-peak limiter is. The only limiter I know is the one that increases or decreases the overall volume of the track. Is the mv meter an example of a true-peak limiter?

When sound is converted into digital form, it is measured 44,100 times a second (or more!). Those measurements are called samples and they are essentially what make up digital audio.

The sample peak is the highest sample value over a period of time, for example over the length of a track.

However, the samples, because they have gaps of 1/44100th of a second between them, can sometimes not register the highest value in the original sound.

But when a digital to analogue converter is fed the samples, it is able to reconstruct the original waveform properly from the samples (this seems almost magical, but it’s true). So the peak of the analogue signal it creates can be higher than any of samples. This is the ‘true peak’.

True peak limiters manipulate the digital audio to ensure that when it’s converted to analogue it will never exceed 0dBFS (the onset of clipping) even at the true peaks.

[James_AvA]

Hello to everybody. So, just recently, I exported the song and then put it back into garage-band, as a single track, in order to work on the mastering. What happened was, now that it is one track, it is not clipping, at all, it doesn't go into the red area, where as during the mixing, it was, that goes for the tracks and the master track. I also cannot hear any distortion. Pls advise. I'll take it as a good sign, the fact that there is no clipping evident now.

[amanise]

I'm certainly no mastering expert - but I usually know what I'm trying to achieve when I take off my mixing hat and (try) and put on my 'mastering' hat. It's a very different process requiring specialist skills IMO. It usually requires different tools to mixing - but maybe GarageBand had a mastering 'section' - I don't know. I use ACID Pro 10 for my recording, arranging, mixing etc. Then When I've finished that phase and am happy I can't get the mix any better - I export out to iZotope for my version of mastering on the final stereo mix.

When I do that - I always start from a point where I absolutely know what I want to achieve. So, what is that for you - with this track? Who is your target audience? Which platforms are you aiming for? Once you've decided that - you have a chance of being able to learn what you need to do to get to the final 'mastered' version. You'll also be able to target your questions more easily - its a big area. In my case, what I always want to do is - get out any noise, hum, rumble etc., get the loudness somewhere close to the threshold for Spotify, get normalisation at about -1 peak dBfs if it makes sense musically, make sure there's no clipping, make sure there's not too much of the high frequencies (that's just something that my mixes mostly tend to need controlling for some reason). Like that. But it'll be different for you.

[sc1460]

Hello to everybody. So, just recently, I exported the song and then put it back into garage-band, as a single track, in order to work on the mastering. What happened was, now that it is one track, it is not clipping, at all, it doesn't go into the red area, where as during the mixing, it was, that goes for the tracks and the master track. I also cannot hear any distortion. Pls advise. I'll take it as a good sign, the fact that there is no clipping evident now.

Well Joe Meek said if it sounds good, it is good, allegedly! Many producers always check their track against a “reference track”, play one that you think sounds like the sort of sound and level you want and compare your track to it in terms of level, tonal balance, harmonics etc. What does the comparison imply about your track?

Cheers
H