Zoom H4n vs smartphone, guess which wins

[notuno]

Num1 : more open sound compared to num2, noisier, Violin more metallic, Piano sounds as though mid n bottom is missing lol.

Num2 : more boxier sound compared to num1 possibly due to being placed on a table or chair and or automatic software noise suppression which also translates to lesser noise, Violin more natural compared to 1 still not that natural, Piano has a bit more mid n bottom compared to 1, also sounds as there's possibly automatic software limiting.

My pref is Num2 which I reckon is phone. Which specific phone though.

It's for a violin competition, so I guess the jury will listen closely

They'd be familiar with phone sound so I'd give Num2 recording to them. Also for reasons mentioned.

ok, you win! Num1 was the Zoom H4N, placed about 3m from the violinist at 120cm height from the floor. Num2 was a Pixel 6a phone, placed under the Zoom, about 20cm from the floor. I was surprised at how good the phone sounds.

[tea for two]

Aha. This saved me purchasing h4n ta muchly.
Did you use giggles standard recording app or some other app on pixel 6a phone.

A few months earlier a person posted on ere SoS foruume a church organ recording with h4n which sounded alright : so it's prolly more to do with what's being recorded, a loud source church organ, rock band h4n will prolly be alright, a quieter source as piano violin not so much. If you wanted to you could record a loud music source with h4n and pixel 6a to hear how they compare.

[notuno]

Aha. This saved me purchasing h4n ta muchly.
Did you use giggles standard recording app or some other app on pixel 6a phone.

A few months earlier a person posted on ere SoS foruume a church organ recording with h4n which sounded alright : so it's prolly more to do with what's being recorded, a loud source church organ, rock band h4n will prolly be alright, a quieter source as piano violin not so much. If you wanted to you could record a loud music source with h4n and pixel 6a to hear how they compare.

This was just the standard video recording button of the Pixel camera. I then separated out the audio with Quicktime. For years I've been recording this kind of performances with a DSLR camera with prime lens, and audio with the Zoom H4, then putting them together. Seeing the video and audio quality of the Pixel I'm tempted to just use the phone.

Good ides trying with a loud source. I will do a comparison soon by recording a symphonic orchestra, stay tuned.

[James Perrett]

Aha. This saved me purchasing h4n ta muchly.
Did you use giggles standard recording app or some other app on pixel 6a phone.

As you have a U-44 already you don't need an H4. The U-44 with a mobile phone, the XYH-6 mics and the USB Audio Recorder app make a decent portable setup. The U-44 runs for about 5 hours on its own batteries or even longer if powered from a Pixel 6a.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

I was surprised at how good the phone sounds.

Yes in terms of frequency response, polar pattern, noise floor etc it is very very close to the H4. However, a cheap mic placed carefully will always beat an expensive one placed badly (such as near the floor). Big advantage of the H4 is you can monitor the signal with sealed headphones as you move it around to find the best position.

[Arpangel]

If I had to choose, it would be No 1, but both recordings lack bottom-end, and low-mid's, and the stereo image is skewed.
Not being funny, but given the type of music, I wouldn’t use either of these, and I’d say they are just on the verge of distracting the listener from the performance.
Definitely worth investigating a step up, you may be able to get away with these set-up's recording other types of music, but not in this case IMO.

[Hugh Robjohns]

There is no doubting that phone technology is little short of amazing these days.... but the real quality issue here is with the location of both recording systems, not only affecting stereo image and tonality, but also the acoustic perspective and the violin/piano balance.

But as the OP explained, he had very limited options given this was a public performance with practical restrictions on what could be done. Placing the mics so low is always going to compromise the sound to some extent.

[tea for two]

To the OP a xlr lav mic cardioid pair will be nearly as discreet as h4n, pixel6a
with decent snr i.e. low self noise and able to record 40Hz into h4n will yield better results. Worth looking into Movo xlr lav mics as they won't break the bank, I have a pair Movo xlr lav mics.

This SoS article : Recording Piano & Violin
https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... olin-piano
written by Hugh and Paul in 2004 Birmingham Symphony hall is a handy reading for me also for anybody interested.

::

Aha. This saved me purchasing h4n ta muchly.
Did you use giggles standard recording app or some other app on pixel 6a phone.

As you have a U-44 already you don't need an H4. The U-44 with a mobile phone, the XYH-6 mics and the USB Audio Recorder app make a decent portable setup. The U-44 runs for about 5 hours on its own batteries or even longer if powered from a Pixel 6a.

U-44 most versatile audio interface I have. It's MS clip on mic MSH-6 I will prolly acquire.

[Arpangel]

There is no doubting that phone technology is little short of amazing these days.... but the real quality issue here is with the location of both recording systems, not only affecting stereo image and tonality, but also the acoustic perspective and the violin/piano balance.

But as the OP explained, he had very limited options given this was a public performance with practical restrictions on what could be done. Placing the mics so low is always going to compromise the sound to some extent.

It must be possible to locate the mic's better than this, if using an integrated mic/recorder set-up then cabling isn’t going to present a health and safety or visual issue.
A mic stand at about four feet, and better mic's via short cables plugged into a good handy recorder, that can deliver phantom power would be a major step-up, that wouldn’t need a separate interface. But even so, any phone compatible interface with phantom could be draped over the mic stand with no trouble.

[Hugh Robjohns]

There are always possibilities... but it comes down to the definition of 'inconspicuous' and the time available.

He'd get a great sound very inconspicuously by slinging active capsule mics from a catenary wire... but it would take a long time to rig!

Personally, I'd rig a couple of TF5s or similar small SDCs in ORTF atop a 3m single slim pole on a flat base cathedral stand. But some would complain even that was too conspicuous.

[tea for two]

Giggle pixel8 phone has audio eraser to help remove unwanted noises from a recording.
Here is a snippet sirens in the Double Bass recorded outdoors.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/pTsGRYPaNQo

I wouldn't mind testing a pixel8 to hear what audio eraser can do in different scenarios indoors outdoors also how adversely it affects the recording of the instrument/s.

[Arpangel]

Giggle pixel8 phone has audio eraser to help remove unwanted noises from a recording.
Here is a snippet sirens in the Double Bass recorded outdoors.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/pTsGRYPaNQo

I wouldn't mind testing a pixel8 to hear what audio eraser can do in different scenarios indoors outdoors also how adversely it affects the recording of the instrument/s.

So many people spend so much time with gizmo's trying to get rid of stuff that could have been avoided to start with. Find the right venue, use the right gear, priorities will determine those things, and if the priorities don’t suite you, don’t do it.
OK, if unexpected things happen despite the fact that you’ve done everything right, then fine, use the gizmos, and if they enable you to save a "great session" (notice the use of the word "great") then fine, it's all justifiable.
A young student scraping away on a violin, very badly, at their first exam, well, you just need to hear whats going on, people wont be concentrating on the audio quality too much, and if they are, then they’ve got their priorities wrong.

[tea for two]

Giggle pixel8 phone has audio eraser to help remove unwanted noises from a recording.
Here is a snippet sirens in the Double Bass recorded outdoors.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/pTsGRYPaNQo

I wouldn't mind testing a pixel8 to hear what audio eraser can do in different scenarios indoors outdoors also how adversely it affects the recording of the instrument/s.

So many people spend so much time with gizmo's trying to get rid of stuff that could have been avoided to start with. Find the right venue, use the right gear, priorities will determine those things, and if the priorities don’t suite you, don’t do it.
OK, if unexpected things happen despite the fact that you’ve done everything right, then fine, use the gizmos, and if they enable you to save a "great session" (notice the use of the word "great") then fine, it's all justifiable.
A young student scraping away on a violin, very badly, at their first exam, well, you just need to hear whats going on, people wont be concentrating on the audio quality too much, and if they are, then they’ve got their priorities wrong.

Even the World Class SoS foruume recording engineers have recorded in venues where roadworks traffic leaky roof noisy roof been an issue.
Im all for gizmos if they work properly.
Synths are gizmos as are computer audio interfaces mixing desks.

[Arpangel]

Giggle pixel8 phone has audio eraser to help remove unwanted noises from a recording.
Here is a snippet sirens in the Double Bass recorded outdoors.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/pTsGRYPaNQo

I wouldn't mind testing a pixel8 to hear what audio eraser can do in different scenarios indoors outdoors also how adversely it affects the recording of the instrument/s.

So many people spend so much time with gizmo's trying to get rid of stuff that could have been avoided to start with. Find the right venue, use the right gear, priorities will determine those things, and if the priorities don’t suite you, don’t do it.
OK, if unexpected things happen despite the fact that you’ve done everything right, then fine, use the gizmos, and if they enable you to save a "great session" (notice the use of the word "great") then fine, it's all justifiable.
A young student scraping away on a violin, very badly, at their first exam, well, you just need to hear whats going on, people wont be concentrating on the audio quality too much, and if they are, then they’ve got their priorities wrong.

Even the World Class SoS foruume recording engineers have recorded in venues where roadworks traffic leaky roof noisy roof been an issue.
Im all for gizmos if they work properly.
Synths are gizmos as are computer audio interfaces mixing desks.

No one in their right mind would make a serious recording of music that was sensitive to that type of environment, it would simply be a waste of time and money.
Synth's are instruments, meant to be there, unwanted environmental noises aren’t.

[Exalted Wombat]

2 is a better balance between violin and piano, but sounds like the mic was in a box! 1 is the higher quality recording.

But it doesn't really matter. Because the violinist is going to listen to either of them and say 'God! Was I playing THAT much out of tune?' and refuse to let you submit either.

[Hugh Robjohns]

No one in their right mind would make a serious recording of music that was sensitive to that type of environment, it would simply be a waste of time and money.

Utter nonsense. If a non-studio venue is chosen for acoustic or practical reasons, normal city noises and weather must be expected and appropriate precautions taken.

I've certainly had to pause location recordings, both with the beeb and privately, for passing ambulances, or other transportation noises, as well as for wind or the rain noise on the roof to stop. That's the real world of location recording.

It has nothing to do with mental incapacity, and everything to do with pragmatism and budget. Good advance planning ensures time is built into the schedule, and budgets managed appropriately for such likely interruptions.

Why do you think most classical organ recordings have to be made in the wee small hours?

[notuno]

2 is a better balance between violin and piano, but sounds like the mic was in a box! 1 is the higher quality recording.

But it doesn't really matter. Because the violinist is going to listen to either of them and say 'God! Was I playing THAT much out of tune?' and refuse to let you submit either.

For a 10-year old violinist playing in front of a hundred people with a pianist she met half an hour before, it's not that bad as you make it sound.

[Nazard]

Why do you think most classical organ recordings have to be made in the wee small hours

A long time ago I was being recorded, during a morning one weekend and ended up playing the Toccata from Widor's fifth organ symphony five times. The first take was a levels issue, the second and third aircraft and traffic noise respectively. The fourth I made a slip but the fifth was perfect, thankfully!

[notuno]

There is no doubting that phone technology is little short of amazing these days.... but the real quality issue here is with the location of both recording systems, not only affecting stereo image and tonality, but also the acoustic perspective and the violin/piano balance.

But as the OP explained, he had very limited options given this was a public performance with practical restrictions on what could be done. Placing the mics so low is always going to compromise the sound to some extent.

It must be possible to locate the mic's better than this, if using an integrated mic/recorder set-up then cabling isn’t going to present a health and safety or visual issue.
A mic stand at about four feet, and better mic's via short cables plugged into a good handy recorder, that can deliver phantom power would be a major step-up, that wouldn’t need a separate interface. But even so, any phone compatible interface with phantom could be draped over the mic stand with no trouble.

There was almost no time to setup the camera+Zoom and it had to be hardly noticeable. The phone was a last-second afterthought as a backup.

[Tomás Mulcahy]

For a 10-year old violinist playing in front of a hundred people with a pianist she met half an hour before, it's not that bad as you make it sound.

Wow, that is a very impressive 10 year old.

[Exalted Wombat]

2 is a better balance between violin and piano, but sounds like the mic was in a box! 1 is the higher quality recording.

But it doesn't really matter. Because the violinist is going to listen to either of them and say 'God! Was I playing THAT much out of tune?' and refuse to let you submit either.

For a 10-year old violinist playing in front of a hundred people with a pianist she met half an hour before, it's not that bad as you make it sound.

Well, out-of-tune is out-of-tune, whoever's playing it. Would they have made a better job of a slightly easier piece?
But I'm glad this is being read by the recordist, not the player, who is obviously talented and deserves nothing but encouragement.

[Arpangel]

No one in their right mind would make a serious recording of music that was sensitive to that type of environment, it would simply be a waste of time and money.

Utter nonsense. If a non-studio venue is chosen for acoustic or practical reasons, normal city noises and weather must be expected and appropriate precautions taken.

I've certainly had to pause location recordings, both with the beeb and privately, for passing ambulances, or other transportation noises, as well as for wind or the rain noise on the roof to stop. That's the real world of location recording.

It has nothing to do with mental incapacity, and everything to do with pragmatism and budget. Good advance planning ensures time is built into the schedule, and budgets managed appropriately for such likely interruptions.

Why do you think most classical organ recordings have to be made in the wee small hours?

Now you know why I didn’t want to take the baton from Mike, I’m not cut out to be an engineer.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm saying nuffin.....