Anyone bought or used Alto Professional Mixing Desks

[James Perrett]

Most people would use the stereo inputs as aux returns but 2 post fade aux sends is a little bit stingy. When I bought my mixers, 6 auxes were normal with the possibility to choose internally (on a channel by channel basis) which were pre or post fade. More expensive desks offered up to 8 auxes.

James.

[Hugh Robjohns]

No mate, i have hardware external effects i need to put through the desk, the ZED mixers have very little in the way of aux sends or stereo aux returns, that is the point you are missing.

The point he was making is that more expensive mixers usually cost more for good reasons, one of which might be easier servicability and a more robust construction... such as the individual channel PCBs of the Zed as compared to the all-on-one motherboard approach of most budget mixers.

Regardless, given your requirements for a lot of aux sends you may have to concentrate your search around live sound consoles since a high aux send count tends to be more of a priority in that market than the recording market -- but make sure that a sufficient number can be switched post-fade.

Hugh

[grab]

The Zed R16 is primarily a multitrack recording/mixing desk though, unlike the ones it's being compared against. A better comparison would be the ZED 420. These do indeed have 6 auxes (2 pre, 2 post, 2 switchable). They also have two pairs of stereo jack inputs for aux returns, plus two further pairs of stereo RCA inputs which can either go through the EQ/faders or go directly to the L/R mix.

[Kwaidan]

Apparently Alto is owned by Numark, also owners of Alesis, AkiaPro, Mixmeister & IONpro.

[N.icholas]

????????!!

Now we are able to identify three big business units within SEIKAKU:

SHOW: A complete range of products dedicated to Public Address

▲LTO: The professional branch producing and distributing music and audio equipment

OEM and ODM business: Original products manufactured or designed for several top brands in the world"

[Greg Strutton]

Just my 2pence worth.

Looking at this product shot - http://legacy.altoproaudio.com/admin/_static/files/prodotti/124339232658342/124407537881871.jpg - I noticed several things.
A few of the faders are wonky. The min mix especially.
Some of the buttons seem to be sloping rather than be flat. See above the group channels.
Look at the joins on the unit, in some places it doesn't all match up. Gaps here and there.

Now compare that to the ZEDR16 product shot (as it's already been mentioned a few times) - http://www.allen-heath.com/Assets/Images/Products/ZED-R16/L_Gal_1_ZED_R16_3Q.jpg
All the faders line up
All the buttons are perfectly flat.
The frame fits the body of the unit without any gaps.
But devil is also in the detail, look at all the screws on the ZEDR16, they have been designed to be flush!

So, from the view point of build quality, you can see where some the extra pennies you pay for have gone. Personally, when purchasing gear I always look for detail like this. Has a major influence on who I part my cash with.

[Hugh Robjohns]

yes, all good observations, and those are the kinds of things that reveal the level of quality control, the manufacturing standards and the quality of components used.

Good points well made.

hugh

[N.icholas]

Very good observations - though this is from their legacy site - certainly would be returnable! .
The new version ( rebadged ) but the same basic design looks a bit more tidied up and on the pics ( though I couldn't zoom as close) the outside build looks a bit better ( maybe they have improved the quality control - or made sure they picked a good one for the picture!) - but one may presume what is underneath may be the same - !

(Interestingly - or not interestingly -it looks like their smaller 12 channel mixer with 3 banks of 4 channels bolted on!)

[Kwaidan]

Now compare that to the ZEDR16 product shot (as it's already been mentioned a few times) - http://www.allen-heath.com/Assets/Images/Products/ZED-R16/L_Gal_1_ZED_R16_3Q.jpg
All the faders line up
All the buttons are perfectly flat.
The frame fits the body of the unit without any gaps.
But devil is also in the detail, look at all the screws on the ZEDR16, they have been designed to be flush!

So, from the view point of build quality, you can see where some the extra pennies you pay for have gone. Personally, when purchasing gear I always look for detail like this. Has a major influence on who I part my cash with.

I'm sure the ZED R16 is all fine and dandy, but far too high priced at £1500!! And it still has no dedicated AUX returns, as said in the pros/cons box in the SOS review of the R16. Although from one or two diagrams in the manual for a studio based setup you can use the Stereo L/R inputs as effects returns, where 2 channels have EQ and 2 don't.

It's just still far too highly priced imo.

[grab]

And as I said, you're not comparing like for like. The Zed R16 is a multichannel recording desk. The Alto is not - it's a live mixer with basic stereo recording tacked on as an afterthought. If you're comparing against the Alto, look at the Zed 420/428 which have the same features as the Alto.

They're twice the price, sure. But they're well built, the preamps are very nice, and the EQ is pretty good too. Decent mic pres are the big thing for me, having previously used a few cheaper desks with nasty pres - it's simply *easier* to get a good-sounding mix with good ingredients. How do the Alto mic pres sound? If they're half the quality, there's your answer on the pricing...

[Kwaidan]

And as I said, you're not comparing like for like. The Zed R16 is a multichannel recording desk. The Alto is not - it's a live mixer with basic stereo recording tacked on as an afterthought. If you're comparing against the Alto, look at the Zed 420/428 which have the same features as the Alto.

They're twice the price, sure. But they're well built, the preamps are very nice, and the EQ is pretty good too. Decent mic pres are the big thing for me, having previously used a few cheaper desks with nasty pres - it's simply *easier* to get a good-sounding mix with good ingredients. How do the Alto mic pres sound? If they're half the quality, there's your answer on the pricing...

I don't record vocals, so i don't care about mic pres on mixers, they go unused. And i couldn't tell you about how an alto mixer sounds, because no music store near me stocks them to try out. I'm just going to stick to my 16 channel soundcraft desk for now, until i can get something much better.

[Desincarnage]

I know I am digging up an old thread, but I want to (or at least try to) demonstrate that Zephyr is nothing but a Behringer clone.

I've been using Behringer's Xenyx X2442USB for 2 years now, and I have a lot of gripe against it. The preamps give you as much distortion as you can get from only slight overload, the EQs are blunt and give an unnatural feel to the sound, especially when adding frenquencies. Going anywhere past 75% of gain will throw unbelievable amounts of noise.

But that's not the worse.

This mixer is just over two years old now, and has not taken a lot of abuse, but it certainly been exposed to dust. Yet, it's already going totally haywire. I occasionnaly completly lose an input for some time, or even an output. The solo lights are now so dim I ban barely see them when they're lit. The VU meters start to fade when sound level reaches +7, and shut off completely at +10 and peak levels. And the built-in effects are not only completly unusable, but they constantly shoot electrical noise to an ouput, even when the effects return knob is turned all the way down. I have no choice but to assign it to a pair of buses I dont use, and forget about using them ever again.

Now THAT's a bad mixing board.

You think that I'm out of topic?

Look at these two mixing board. That should sound an alarm.

http://www.behringer.com/FR/Products/X2442USB.aspx

http://altoproaudio.com/products/zmx164fx-usb

Similar design, similar button placement, similar features, similar outputs, similar names...

Now, you might say that I shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but I've had such a bad experience with Behringer's board, that I can't help but think that Alto's bound to have the same curses.

They'll be replacing my old Behringer with a new Alto board this week, so I guess I'll know for sure soon enough...

[Javan Green]

I've had experiences with a good number of Alto products in the store I work at and they're really not that bad tbh.

Obviously as with most things you get what you pay for but the Alto TS series of PA speakers are currently one of biggest sellers, simply due to the fact that they do actually sound pretty decent (considering) and they're at a price accessible to most. Reliability wise I don't believe we've had a single one back for repair.

They're certainly a slight step-up from likes of Behringer, but the point made earlier is something worth considering; you really do get what you pay for.

[john2223]

I have never heard anything good about alto, but that it is kind of like behringer. I would stick to the soundcraft you already have.

[TheChorltonWheelie]

I am thinking about buying such a desk, but has anyone bought or previously owned one, and can you tell me about it's build quality, sound etc?

I have one of these:

http://www.soundsliveshop.com/p/Alto_Professional_Zephyr_ZMX122FX_Mixing_Desk/ALTO-ZMX122FX?CAWELAID=1830892397&catargetid=1890706704&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CKTVoevlwLYCFWLHtAodD1IA3Q

It's not bad for £100, and I regularly use it as a small vocal sub-mixer at big gigs and I can't see any reason to change it. I occsionally use it on the smaller acoustic gigs, and whilst it's limited in features, it doesn't sound harsh or "cheap".

90% of the advice will be subjective, based on what people think of Alto (which is Alesis by the way), but if you search for the reviews on the Alto TS115's (which SOS themselves have reviewed) you'll see that Alto do make a few good products.

[TheChorltonWheelie]

I have never heard anything good about alto, but that it is kind of like behringer. I would stick to the soundcraft you already have.

What about the TS speakers, which have had nothing but great reviews, and that includes from SOS too?

[James Perrett]

90% of the advice will be subjective, based on what people think of Alto (which is Alesis by the way)

Up until recently Alto were at the real budget end of the market - even more budget than Behringer. Phonic were the same. It looks like the owners of both Alto and Phonic are trying to move them upmarket which seems a little strange to me as it would surely have been easier to create a new brand without the baggage of the old brand.

James.

[Strange Powers]

I am thinking about buying such a desk, but has anyone bought or previously owned one, and can you tell me about it's build quality, sound etc?

I have one of these:

http://www.soundsliveshop.com/p/Alto_Professional_Zephyr_ZMX...

It's not bad for £100, and I regularly use it as a small vocal sub-mixer at big gigs and I can't see any reason to change it. I occsionally use it on the smaller acoustic gigs, and whilst it's limited in features, it doesn't sound harsh or "cheap".

90% of the advice will be subjective, based on what people think of Alto (which is Alesis by the way), but if you search for the reviews on the Alto TS115's (which SOS themselves have reviewed) you'll see that Alto do make a few good products.

read this entire post and this is the most relevant thing posted as this person has actually used Alto which it seems NONE of you with the strongest opinions can say.

also why has no one mentioned Mackie Mixers? the ProFx series is in the same category even though it's a bit more expensive. the only difference that I can tell is that it has 32 bit effects instead of 24. In this range, you guys are looking at "Desks" which we in the States call "boards" (yes I'm a yank, deal with it) and indeed Behringer is ABSOLUTE shyt. I however do not use mixers for home, that is for my Focusrite Interface. I use 8/12 channel mixers for live sound as we are picky about controlling our sound on stage. The Mackies are tough, rugged and sound amazing. However they are complete monsters in actual size. the DFX-6 gives you balanced XLR outputs which is convenient for using powered PA. However the damned thing weighs 8 pounds which is 3 pounds heavier than the Alto ZMX 122FX. It also is practically half a foot longer, and even several inches taller. For this reason, I will be trading my DFX in for the ZMX tomorrow, even though I may be sacrificing a bit of sound quality. My two cents I guess.

[MauriceSylvester]

I have the ZMX 244 , and I would say it's 'ok'. It does the job, to a good enough standard, but could definately use some improvements.
However, for the price and the amount of channels you get, they're a bargain.

[Ucanb]

Recently acquired an Alto Tmx120dfx from a friend who had "cooked" it at a gig while running it a full power through 4 speakers (4 ohms). The desk had been promptly repaired under warranty and returned to him as new - but he sold it to me without re-opening the box. I normally use old school Soundcraft desks with separate iron age power amps but was fed up with all the leads and wanted a simple, smaller, lighter solution for transporting to & from rehearsals. So I took it out for a 3 day band rehearsal over the Xmas break to see if it was any good. I plugged the power amp outs into a 600 watt 15" cab on one one side and a 200 watt 12" on the other (both 8 ohms with hf horns & internal passive crossovers) and attached an 18" sub via an external 1000 watt power amp to the sub output on the desk (again using a passive crossover - although I've since gathered the desk already has one). The results were very surprising mainly as it sounded great, it was easy to use, power was plenty, eq and effects were fine and I loved being able to balance the 2 channel mixer output with the sub master out from the desk. There was no sign of overheating (it has a thermo controlled fan). At the end of the 3 days I was sold on the desk to the point that I am ready to try it out on small gigs - albeit using 2 matched 15's either side (along with a spare amp and desk just in case). I checked out the history of class D amps with my engineer who advised the components of class D amps just don't have the tolerance for using different ohms ratings that you could get away with in old school amps. So his conclusion was that it might be best to throw away the main board and replace it with a new one if it goes faulty. Seems they may be fix-able but as they are so high tech, finding faults and fixing them takes too long to be financially viable. I think the manufacturers may have already replaced the main board on this one.

So in my experience this desk works a treat provided you stick to an 8 ohm per side load on the power outs. You have to weigh the benefits of the low price with a low tolerance for abuse and possible throwaway (class D) internals if it all goes wrong. That said I'm learning to love it for what it is so if you buy new with full manufacturers warranty you should be able to find the safe zone before the warranty runs out.