Marshalls...

[Alanqa]

I just bought the Marshall Origin 50head and 2x12 vertical cab.

I too felt I needed some Marshall in my life. My previous amps have been: Fender Horror deluxe iii, Fender Bassbreaker 18/30 and Fender Bassbreaker 007 head and 1x12 cab.

The Origin comes with footswitch for gain boost/effects loop. No reverb (but you do get the effects loop). Gain with pull out boost (or just use the footswitch). Tilt (changes the input from muddy to clear - I think this is to replace the 4input plexi design where people would bridge the bright and normal inputs. The tilt control let's you vary this.
Then the usual treble middle bass and volume and presence. Finally there is a power attenuator switch that goes from 1/2 a watt (louder than you'd think) to 10 watts (loud enough to rehearse with) to 50 watts aka Arrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!

Soundwise I largely play Gretsch guitars though occasionally pick up the PRS SE. Gretsch Filtertrons have the clarity of strat pickups and the warmth of a Les Paul combined with a sweet woody hollowness you get from a 335. Filtertrons are not weak pickups and I can get serious ACDC out of the Marshall just by cranking the controls. (Usually 1/2 watt is loud enough for me). Without a boost or drive pedal Malcolm Young or Rolling Stones crunch is as heavy as this amp will go. But that is not the whole story.

Because the amps break up is much more subtle and paced than most 'drive channels' on modern amps it makes it an amazing pedal platform. With the gain backed off to 12 o'clock and the power setting on middle or high the valves are barely ticking over and the tone is warm clear and perfect for any clean playing. Again with the Falcon I can go to Shadows like clarity and twang, sweet funk, sharp reggae, mellow jazz. It really is an amp for all seasons.

Anybody want to buy a Fender Bassbreaker 007 head and cab?

[ef37a]

Alanq's post adds credence to the point that you do not need to drive the bits off output valves nor practically rip the cones out of the speakers to get a good tone.

But the myth persists. The fact is that most of the OD tone of a guitar amp resides in the pre amp stages and the output stage merely adds 'colour'. PIs? They are practically high fidelity due to the large amount of cathode feedback (sorry, getting tekky again!) and are VERY difficult to push into distortion.

So, why to people like insanely loud amps? Adrenalin! The 'Roller Coaster" effect. In nature loud noises mean danger but when we experience scary things but know we cannot be hurt we love the rush.

Yes, EL34s give that slightly 'harder' Marshall tone as apposed to the slightly softer 6L6 but it is subtle and the effect's greatest use is to market amplifiers!

Dave.

[CS70]

Fender Horror deluxe iii

Was the hotrod that bad?

[ore_terra]

Alanq's post adds credence to the point that you do not need to drive the bits off output valves nor practically rip the cones out of the speakers to get a good tone.

But the myth persists. The fact is that most of the OD tone of a guitar amp resides in the pre amp stages and the output stage merely adds 'colour'. PIs? They are practically high fidelity due to the large amount of cathode feedback (sorry, getting tekky again!) and are VERY difficult to push into distortion.

So, why to people like insanely loud amps? Adrenalin! The 'Roller Coaster" effect. In nature loud noises mean danger but when we experience scary things but know we cannot be hurt we love the rush.

Yes, EL34s give that slightly 'harder' Marshall tone as apposed to the slightly softer 6L6 but it is subtle and the effect's greatest use is to market amplifiers!

Dave.

at the risk of starting a valve conversation with you...

I fully agree for this type of amp (this type of power valves), but wouldnt you say that power stage break is big part of the OD sound in other amps types? EL84's, 6V6's...

[ef37a]

Alanq's post adds credence to the point that you do not need to drive the bits off output valves nor practically rip the cones out of the speakers to get a good tone.

But the myth persists. The fact is that most of the OD tone of a guitar amp resides in the pre amp stages and the output stage merely adds 'colour'. PIs? They are practically high fidelity due to the large amount of cathode feedback (sorry, getting tekky again!) and are VERY difficult to push into distortion.

So, why to people like insanely loud amps? Adrenalin! The 'Roller Coaster" effect. In nature loud noises mean danger but when we experience scary things but know we cannot be hurt we love the rush.

Yes, EL34s give that slightly 'harder' Marshall tone as apposed to the slightly softer 6L6 but it is subtle and the effect's greatest use is to market amplifiers!

Dave.

at the risk of starting a valve conversation with you...

I fully agree for this type of amp (this type of power valves), but wouldnt you say that power stage break is big part of the OD sound in other amps types? EL84's, 6V6's...

I will agree that the lower the power output of the amp the more OPvalve you are going to get and EL84s are particularly 'dirty'. But, think on? The 'classic' OD sound is a Vox AC30 in full chat but Strweth! What decibel level!

It is always horses for courses. In a decent sized pub a good 15W (V6 or 84) into a V30 will easily be loud enough for 'edgey' on the limit OD tones but might be a bit lacking against a heavy drummer for cleans? Jump up to a 30 watter and you have most of the cleans but have to get bloody loud to distort the power valves.

A 50 watter will cover all bases, especially with a good pedal board.

NOW! I have to come clean here! I have not played guitar for many years but spent a lot of time with my son (who certainly can play!) in trying various mods. I listened intently to the seasoned players at Blackstar. I knew a good deal about valves but learnt a lot about GUITAR amplifiers from Bruce, Ian, Cliff and others.

The meteoric rise of home recording has seen guitarists especially frustrated when they try to capture that 'stadium sound' in a 1300cu ft bedroom and NOT wake the chavvy!

Dave.

[Alanqa]

fender horror deluxe! Whoever thought of autocorrect wants a kick in the bells.

[ore_terra]

But, think on? The 'classic' OD sound is a Vox AC30 in full chat but Strweth! What decibel level!

you have to try this new generation of reactive load power attenuators... it's been a game changer for me (I sold most of my OD pedals )

[Hewesy]

I just bought the Marshall Origin 50head and 2x12 vertical cab.

I too felt I needed some Marshall in my life. My previous amps have been: Fender Horror deluxe iii, Fender Bassbreaker 18/30 and Fender Bassbreaker 007 head and 1x12 cab.

The Origin comes with footswitch for gain boost/effects loop. No reverb (but you do get the effects loop). Gain with pull out boost (or just use the footswitch). Tilt (changes the input from muddy to clear - I think this is to replace the 4input plexi design where people would bridge the bright and normal inputs. The tilt control let's you vary this.
Then the usual treble middle bass and volume and presence. Finally there is a power attenuator switch that goes from 1/2 a watt (louder than you'd think) to 10 watts (loud enough to rehearse with) to 50 watts aka Arrrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh!

Soundwise I largely play Gretsch guitars though occasionally pick up the PRS SE. Gretsch Filtertrons have the clarity of strat pickups and the warmth of a Les Paul combined with a sweet woody hollowness you get from a 335. Filtertrons are not weak pickups and I can get serious ACDC out of the Marshall just by cranking the controls. (Usually 1/2 watt is loud enough for me). Without a boost or drive pedal Malcolm Young or Rolling Stones crunch is as heavy as this amp will go. But that is not the whole story.

Because the amps break up is much more subtle and paced than most 'drive channels' on modern amps it makes it an amazing pedal platform. With the gain backed off to 12 o'clock and the power setting on middle or high the valves are barely ticking over and the tone is warm clear and perfect for any clean playing. Again with the Falcon I can go to Shadows like clarity and twang, sweet funk, sharp reggae, mellow jazz. It really is an amp for all seasons.

Anybody want to buy a Fender Bassbreaker 007 head and cab?

That's the review I was hoping for! I'm looking at the Origin 20H and would run through my 1x12 with a Greenback Celestion via a Marshall SE100.

I'm slowly trying to edge away from drive pedals (I can't explain why really!) save a mini TC Spark Boost for extra nudge. But ACDC type crunch is as much as I want anyway.

The verb is a bit of an issue but then I'm spoiled with the Laney having a genuine spring verb - to get that in a plexi type amp seems you need to step up a few price levels. Nothing wrong with digital at all but if its built in I can't see why you would sneak a little spring Accutronics in there.

The Bassbreaker is an EL84 amp, HotRod I think 6L6? So interesting the Origin is that different.

Thanks!

Hewesy

[Hewesy]

" I couldn't see how a valve could roll of treble...."

Ah well now, you see a valve is a 'resistor', the 12 AX7 'looks like' about 60k Ohms and so any capacitors connected with it will form a filter circuit.
The 12AT7 is lower, around 22k iirc and so will change the frequency of those filters but as mentioned, the bias will not be right for an AT7 and so it will probably distort at a lower drive level than the AX7.

When it comes to 'improved' or boutique valves of the same type, then I, as a technician have a problem. Valves are incredibly precisely engineered structures the size and spacing of the electrodes is critical if one is to meet its specification, that is the published papaer parameters. For a circuit to work as designer those parameters must be spot on. Things like the resistance ^ and 'Amplification Factor' or 'mu' (100 for the 12AX7 but you don't get all of that) HAVE to be as published or the valve won't work as required.

Dave.

Ahh that explains it, funnily enough I've always presumed the valve would offer some resistance to the circuit but stopped short of understanding it would therefore be a resistor! D'oh...

Cheers Dave,

Hewesy

[Guest]

I prefer Laney.
or actually HiWatt,
but they don't sell those in USA.
HiWatt is better than Marshall.
The new Laney's look tight.
Why not get over the past and move on into the future,.
Lots of good brands out there.
Morgan, beautiful.
Friedman, delicious.
You want a wha?
A Marsha marsha marsha.
My favorite is Matchless, pure beauty by design.
You gotta be joking,
you've never heard of Reinhold Bogner.
What are you a caveman.
Superstars of the past played more HiWatt
or Supra or everything, Fender,.
There's no such thing as Marshall is the brand of the stars,
what a ridiculous accusation.

disclaimer:
(no hatred meant in this lite hearted banter)

[CS70]

There's no such thing as Marshall is the brand of the stars,

Truth be told, there are some people who say they like them..

https://marshall.com/marshall-amps/endorsers

[Sam Spoons]

EC used one in the Bluesbreakers so there can't be much wrong with them.....

[SecretSam]

Hendrix, Gallagher, Trower on the one hand.

Some geezer on the internet on the other.

Hm.

[ef37a]

EC used one in the Bluesbreakers so there can't be much wrong with them.....

That's the amp he spent years finding according to the documentary on recently.

Clapton was also said to have convinced recording engineers to mic his amp from several mtrs away. Said, " The ****g audience is out THERE not with their ****g ears stuck against the speaker!"

But, how does 'everyone' still do it these days? Mind you, Clapton was a bit loud.

Head-on-block time... Marshalls, the valve jobs, are really just variants of Fender designs and Fenders just built from the valve data sheets. So in practice the only real variable is the 'voicing' in the pre amp. You can distort a bit then EQ or EQ then distort. Then do either or both again and the frequencies at which you do so are infinitely variable.

People bang on about output transformers but in my, admittedly small, experience they all sound much the same. (some are however a bit feeble)

Dave.

[Sam Spoons]

For practical reasons I close mic my guitar cab in the studio but going from 1" from the grill to 4-6" back makes a huge difference to the sound.

[CS70]

But, how does 'everyone' still do it these days? Mind you, Clapton was a bit loud.

This is quite nice:

https://www.loudersound.com/features/jo ... -the-beano

[SecretSam]

I am also coming to the conclusion that I am looking for a Marshall, and not a Vox.

A local company hand builds valve amps at reasonable prices. Would the spec below sound Marshally in your collective opinion?

"18 watts of cathode biased British tone
12AX7 (ECC83) preamp tubes
EL84 power tubes
6CA7 rectifier
Aluminium chassis with perspex faceplates.
one channel features plexie style tone controls with gain, treble, bass, mids and master volume"

The company is Mars Tube Audio, and they do clones of a few classic designs:

http://www.marsamps.co.za/product/18-watt/

They can provide them as kits, fully built amps, or just the fully built electrical bit - so you can design your own arty case. Which could be fun.

Shipping to the UK might cost a bit, but locally the fully built electrical bit costs about 10% less than a Chinese-built Origin 20 head.

[ef37a]

I am ABSOLUTELY no kind of expert on Marshalls but I would say that THE marsh' tone is EL34s and fixed biased?

That kit is EL84s and cathode bias and that is a Vox AC15 line up. Can you get a schematic out of them before you buy? I seem to recall Marshalls used a bit of negative feedback? Vox did not.

Dave.

[SecretSam]

Thanks very much Dave. I'll see if they will part with one.

[Sam Inglis]

I have an old Marshall PA20 head. Despite being EL84 rather than EL34 based it sounds pretty Marshall-y to me. And it's only 20W so perfect volume for rehearsals, pub gigs, etc. If those things ever happen again.

[ef37a]

I have an old Marshall PA20 head. Despite being EL84 rather than EL34 based it sounds pretty Marshall-y to me. And it's only 20W so perfect volume for rehearsals, pub gigs, etc. If those things ever happen again.

Hi Sam (there's always one!) Ok! As I said, I know nowt but schematics. "Sounds" are ephemeral things that defy scrutiny! But thinking about it, 20 watts* is a lot to get out of 84s in cathode bias and so it might be a fixed biased amp? Rare for 12W pentodes but would give that extra 'punch' and headroom.

*FYI there was a hospital headphone diss' amp that used EL81s, a TV line output valve that could stand a kV or more. I think that could put out around 25-30 watts from a 12W valve. Not in any way hi fidelity but I bet one would make a killer rock gitamp!

Dave.

[Sam Spoons]

Not quite the same spec* but this would be well worth considering if you are up for a bit of self build (I did,** and it was not difficult, just take heed of the warnings about working on valve amps and the high voltages they use). Quite a bit cheaper*** and UK based so you'll save on shipping, duty and 20% VAT which will be added to the Mars kit/amp.

That said, the difference between the kit and the amp chassis built up is only about £40 which seems ridiculously cheap. Even though a pro build would probably be a fair bit quicker it'd probably still cost you at least £120 for somebody to assemble it for you in the UK.

I love mine, it's been the only guitar amp I use since I built it about 4 or 5 years ago

https://www.ampmaker.com/shop/p1800-18w-vintage-plexi-amplifier/

* The mapmaker kit lacks the valve rectifier.

** I actually built the PP-18 which is slightly less complex, it took about 10-12 hours and worked first time.

*** £308 including UK shipping, no VAT as he is no longer VAT registered.

[Sam Spoons]

Just to add these 18 watt amps are all based on the WEM Dominator design.

[ef37a]

Just to add these 18 watt amps are all based on the WEM Dominator design.

Ah! Something I know, I have a Dominator looky-likely, actually a Mersey Super 15 and it is cathode biased with no NFB.

Not that hard to add a negative bias supply and get the anode current down to 20mA* or so. Runs the valves a lot cooler and as said before, beefs up output. NFB is a trickier matter. Get it dead wrong and the amp takes off. Mind you, being valves they will survive the few seconds it takes to kill the power...transistors? POOF! in mu seconds. Even if stable you only want the merest whiff of NFB or you can get squegging on heavy drive.

*Can't remember what 84s bias to, EL34 'we' always set to 25mA per valve. Will look it up.

Dave.