Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
The NS10 really isn't that fussy about the power amp. There's lots of decent second-hand pro and good hi-fi amps around that would do a good job. If you want to go down the (generic) class-D route then look at the Hypex modules and kits.
- Hugh Robjohns
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Hugh Robjohns wrote:The NS10 really isn't that fussy about the power amp. There's lots of decent second-hand pro and good hi-fi amps around that would do a good job. If you want to go down the (generic) class-D route then look at the Hypex modules and kits.
Thanks for the reply Huge! I was under the impression NS10s are very picky. I hear people talking about nothing under 125 watts a side etc..
Anyway, I have a few Power amps kicking around the studio but none of them where mentioned in any post I saw... probably because there all on the cheaper budget side.... would any of these do a decent job?
Crest Audio LA-901
https://www.yumpu.com/la/document/read/ ... rest-audio
Behringer KM1700
https://www.behringer.com/behringer/pro ... Code=P0BRJ
Crown XLS202
https://www.crownaudio.com/zh/product_d ... asheet-pdf
if not would your recommendation be to go new or something used if I had between $300 - 500 usd to spend? Any suggestions?
I appreciate your thoughts on this so much... so much chatter out there on the subject.. makes my head spin.
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- ablethought
New here - Posts: 6 Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:12 pm
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Arpangel wrote:Secondhand Quad 405? At laser you’d be in period, they were quite popular with the NS10.
Okey, I see them. Decent price. I see that there are also new clones... any thoughts on those?
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- ablethought
New here - Posts: 6 Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:12 pm
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Any thoughts on the original Bryson 3B? Not the ST or SST version... the older 3B. They any good with the Yamahas?
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- ablethought
New here - Posts: 6 Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:12 pm
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Hugh Robjohns wrote:The NS10 really isn't that fussy about the power amp.
Maybe I was unlucky but the Teac amp that we had in the studio really brought out the worst in them.
I haven't tried a new 405 clone although the modules are so cheap that it seems tempting. However, having just done a little searching, it appears that they are based on a very early version of the 405 and suffer from all the disadvantages such as high noise levels and a mistake in the Zobel network routing. I'd prefer to go for a genuine 405-2.
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
James Perrett wrote:Hugh Robjohns wrote:The NS10 really isn't that fussy about the power amp.
Maybe I was unlucky but the Teac amp that we had in the studio really brought out the worst in them.
I haven't tried a new 405 clone although the modules are so cheap that it seems tempting. However, having just done a little searching, it appears that they are based on a very early version of the 405 and suffer from all the disadvantages such as high noise levels and a mistake in the Zobel network routing. I'd prefer to go for a genuine 405-2.
Interesting, clones no good then. 405-2 is the right model.
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- ablethought
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
One other thought - if you are into DIY you could always remove the insides of the Crown or Crest amp that you have already and replace them with Hypex modules which should be within your budget. I did a similar thing with a noisy 405 a few years ago and it cost me around £250.
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
James Perrett wrote:One other thought - if you are into DIY you could always remove the insides of the Crown or Crest amp that you have already and replace them with Hypex modules which should be within your budget. I did a similar thing with a noisy 405 a few years ago and it cost me around £250.
Don’t mind doing that at all. Can you link me to what you used?
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- ablethought
New here - Posts: 6 Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:12 pm
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
ablethought wrote:James Perrett wrote:One other thought - if you are into DIY you could always remove the insides of the Crown or Crest amp that you have already and replace them with Hypex modules which should be within your budget. I did a similar thing with a noisy 405 a few years ago and it cost me around £250.
Don’t mind doing that at all. Can you link me to what you used?
The closest that I can find to my setup is 2 of these
https://www.diyclassd.com/product/ucd180hg-with-hxr/5
coupled with one of these
https://www.diyclassd.com/product/smps400a180/138
and the matching power supply cable set (I think I made my own amplifier cable set).
They only sell the upgraded amplifiers now which adds around 60 Euros to the total cost compared to my build.
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Go on ebay or your local pawn shop and look for high quality old stereo equipment.
There is some great stuff out there.
For example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotel-RA-02-St ... SwqfVfMDK1
There is some great stuff out there.
For example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rotel-RA-02-St ... SwqfVfMDK1
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
James Perrett wrote:Maybe I was unlucky but the Teac amp that we had in the studio really brought out the worst in them.
Intriguing... define 'worst in them' please!
![Wink ;-)](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
However, having just done a little searching, it appears that they are based on a very early version of the 405 and suffer from all the disadvantages such as high noise levels and a mistake in the Zobel network routing.
That seems a disappointing cockup. Which clones are these? I think there are a number of different ones about aren't there?
- Hugh Robjohns
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
It was a Teac AX75 amp Hugh - originally sold by Thatched Cottage Audio to partner the NS10's. Plenty of power but with an exaggerated high end.
I just did a quick Ebay and Google search where it seems that the Chinese 405 modules are often proudly sold as Mk1 modules with NOS 301 op amps. Other forum comments turned up the issues with the early modules and mentioned the fact that the design was taken from a published article which presumably gets around any legal issues. I see there are also a few that are marked 405-2 which, if they are accurate copies, will have overcome these issues although they possibly could do with a few mods to optimise their sensitivity for studio use.
I just did a quick Ebay and Google search where it seems that the Chinese 405 modules are often proudly sold as Mk1 modules with NOS 301 op amps. Other forum comments turned up the issues with the early modules and mentioned the fact that the design was taken from a published article which presumably gets around any legal issues. I see there are also a few that are marked 405-2 which, if they are accurate copies, will have overcome these issues although they possibly could do with a few mods to optimise their sensitivity for studio use.
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Hugh Robjohns wrote:Unlike some here, I actually found the Quad 405 (hifi) or 520 (pro) amps worked very nicely with NS10s. Yes, they are discontinued, but they are easy to source second hand, built like tanks top last a lifetime, easy to maintain, and Quad will still service them to as-new condition for astonishingly little outlay, if necessary.hugh
A bit late as I've been travelling down to the coast but Quad were not remotely interested in fixing my 522, or advising the engineer who was attempting to fix it (he failed). Thankfully Folderol has sorted it out for me (I have yet to plumb it into the studio and my period correct Kef 104ABs, sorry Foldy
![Blush :blush:](./files/images/smilies/icon_blush.gif)
OTOH, I did buy a mint condition StudioSpares Titan 600 off ebay for £65 delivered a few weeks ago so bargains do exist.
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Hello, I am a newbie here:-) However, I have read SOS magazine for over a decade, so I thought what better place to come to get advice regarding my next home studio purchase?!!
I am in the market for a new amp to drive my NS10’s. I have previously used Hifi Amps with them, but I have been looking for something with balanced inputs (which my current Yamaha AS301 amp does not have). I don’t personally have any experience with using the NS10’s on more expensive or vintage amps, but I have visited a few studios that have and based on my research I am learning more and more about them and it appears the amp does make all the difference to how these speakers sound……Or does it?!
So it’s interesting to now see here that the NS10’s are not really fussed by the amp they use! I have been following Hugh Robjohns articles for many years and so know he is very well versed in this area and he knows his stuff! So, I cannot simply overlook what he says. I am therefore now wondering whether the investment I was considering is really going to make a huge difference like I have read it would?! I was considering the Avantone CLA-200, but I would be really interested in hearing from anyone that uses it or has used it in the past. Or from anyone that could recommend a suitable alternative. I am in the market for a brand new unit and don’t require it to have DSP, but balanced inputs are a must!
Many thanks in advance![😄](//cdn.jsdelivr.net/gh/twitter/twemoji@latest/assets/svg/1f604.svg)
I am in the market for a new amp to drive my NS10’s. I have previously used Hifi Amps with them, but I have been looking for something with balanced inputs (which my current Yamaha AS301 amp does not have). I don’t personally have any experience with using the NS10’s on more expensive or vintage amps, but I have visited a few studios that have and based on my research I am learning more and more about them and it appears the amp does make all the difference to how these speakers sound……Or does it?!
So it’s interesting to now see here that the NS10’s are not really fussed by the amp they use! I have been following Hugh Robjohns articles for many years and so know he is very well versed in this area and he knows his stuff! So, I cannot simply overlook what he says. I am therefore now wondering whether the investment I was considering is really going to make a huge difference like I have read it would?! I was considering the Avantone CLA-200, but I would be really interested in hearing from anyone that uses it or has used it in the past. Or from anyone that could recommend a suitable alternative. I am in the market for a brand new unit and don’t require it to have DSP, but balanced inputs are a must!
Many thanks in advance
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- Angelface78
Poster - Posts: 40 Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:56 pm
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
If I was in the market for a new amp now I'd see if I could find one of the Monacor or IMG Stageline STA-400D amps. I'm not sure if they are still current but the electronic design looks almost identical to the monitor amps that I built from Hypex modules.
https://monacor.co.uk/sta-400d.html
They're amazing value for money (assuming that they haven't messed anything up in the additions that they've made).
https://monacor.co.uk/sta-400d.html
They're amazing value for money (assuming that they haven't messed anything up in the additions that they've made).
- James Perrett
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
James Perrett wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:46 am If I was in the market for a new amp now I'd see if I could find one of the Monacor or IMG Stageline STA-400D amps. I'm not sure if they are still current but the electronic design looks almost identical to the monitor amps that I built from Hypex modules.
https://monacor.co.uk/sta-400d.html
They're amazing value for money (assuming that they haven't messed anything up in the additions that they've made).
Thank you so much for your response James Perrett, I really appreciate it. Although, I am not very familiar with the brand of amps you have recommended I did have a look and they are significantly cheaper then the Avantone CLA 200 that I was considering, which is great. But I am still a little confused concerning Class D amps as my research consensus was mostly to steer clear of them as they often introduce noise and require some sort of int built noise filter etc. I am clueless in this area so maybe you could explain this?! Once again thank you for your help thus far and I welcome any further help and/or advice you might be able to provide.
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- Angelface78
Poster - Posts: 40 Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:56 pm
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Thank you Arpangel for your input, which I am very grateful for. Now this sounds interesting!! Now in answer to your question as to whether I already like the sound of my amp. I cannot say I dislike it, but since researching the topic it got me wondering whether I am getting the best sound from my NS10’s due to the current amp choice. If the choice of amp is not going to hugely change the sound of NS10’s then I would rather not have that huge outlay and instead would purchase a subwoofer!! You have given me food for thought-which I am appreciate. I have had a quick look at the Art clean box pro. I wasn’t aware that such a box existed, but I am intrigued!!
Currently the line 1 inputs of amp (rca) are connected to my monitor controller output for NS10’s -using rca -trs leads. Therefore, how would I incorporate this into my setup? Sorry if this is obvious, but I just a little unsure.
Many thanks in advance
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- Angelface78
Poster - Posts: 40 Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:56 pm
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Angelface78 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:17 pm But I am still a little confused concerning Class D amps as my research consensus was mostly to steer clear of them as they often introduce noise and require some sort of int built noise filter etc. I am clueless in this area so maybe you could explain this?!
Yes, Class D amps need some kind of filter on the output but that filter is built into the amplifier so isn't something that you need worry about (with a properly designed amp). Hypex based amplifiers are used by many mastering engineers and, while some mastering engineers have moved on to using the newer nCore modules, the older UcD modules (which are what the STA-400D uses) were highly regarded when they came out and still perform extremely well.
As far as noise is concerned, I use them with very efficient monitors in a very quiet room (any gear with a fan is placed outside the studio) and I have to put my ear right up to the speaker to hear any noise (which is just a very slight hiss).
If you want to see the full technical paper on the UcD amplifiers then it is explained in
https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_ ... lifier.pdf
The Hypex application note library is at
https://www.hypex.nl/p/application-notes-white-papers/
- James Perrett
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Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Angelface78 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:42 pm
Thank you Arpangel for your input, which I am very grateful for. Now this sounds interesting!! Now in answer to your question as to whether I already like the sound of my amp. I cannot say I dislike it, but since researching the topic it got me wondering whether I am getting the best sound from my NS10’s due to the current amp choice. If the choice of amp is not going to hugely change the sound of NS10’s then I would rather not have that huge outlay and instead would purchase a subwoofer!! You have given me food for thought-which I am appreciate. I have had a quick look at the Art clean box pro. I wasn’t aware that such a box existed, but I am intrigued!!
Currently the line 1 inputs of amp (rca) are connected to my monitor controller output for NS10’s -using rca -trs leads. Therefore, how would I incorporate this into my setup? Sorry if this is obvious, but I just a little unsure.
Many thanks in advance
I use my Clean Box Pro to go from my mixers balanced main outputs into my power amp, because I was having hum issues, I’m assuming from what you say you have a balanced source on your monitor controller.
You’re using balanced to unbalanced leads at the moment if I’m correct? If you use the Clean Box, you’d be using TRS to XLR.
With your current leads, as long as they are working correctly, and there are no noises, hums etc they should be fine, going to balanced leads and a Clean Box won’t make anything sound any better.
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
Just for clarity... ART have two similarly-named, but completely different products.
The CleanBOX II is a dual-channel passive box containing a pair of audio transformers connected with TRS sockets in and out. The transformers provide galvanic isolation between the line level inputs and outputs (to break ground loops) and also convert between balanced and unbalanced connections on either side.
![Image](https://artproaudio.com/framework/uploads/2018/06/utilities-cleanbox-II-angle.jpg)
It operates at nominally unity gain (ie, the output level is the same as the input level) and is ideal for converting between unbalanced outputs and balanced inputs, or vice versa, and for breaking ground loops.
It has a slightly more expensive (but far more versatile) sibling called the DTI which is essentially the same thing in a differently shaped box with a plethora of different parallel-wired connectors on each side (XLR, TRS and RCA-Phono). This makes it far more convenient for connecting different devices as well as for splitting and duplicating signals. (I have five of them at the last count as they are so extremely useful).
![Image](https://artproaudio.com/framework/uploads/2018/06/utilities-dti-angle-1200x675.jpg)
Then there's the CLEANboxPro which is a dual-channel 'level converter'.
![Image](https://artproaudio.com/framework/uploads/2018/06/utilities-cleanboxpro-front-angle.jpg)
It looks similar to the DTI, but it has volume knobs on the front and no TRS connectors!
Internally, this is a very different device, though. It is an active product that requires external power, and it is intended to connect unbalanced domestic equipment like video recorders etc to balanced professional equipment. To that end, it receives unbalanced (RCA-phono) inputs at a nominal -10dBV and provides +12dB boosted balanced outputs at +4dBu. It also receives balanced +4dBu inputs and attenuates them by 12dB to provide unbalanced outputs at -10dBV. (The actual gain is adjustable.)
The nature of the active circuitry means there is no galvanic isolation between inputs and outputs. It's a useful box for converting between consumer and professional equipment connections, especially if you need to also adjust the signal levels, and can also be used to interface between pro gear and fx pedals. But it will not help with ground-loop problems.
The CleanBOX II is a dual-channel passive box containing a pair of audio transformers connected with TRS sockets in and out. The transformers provide galvanic isolation between the line level inputs and outputs (to break ground loops) and also convert between balanced and unbalanced connections on either side.
![Image](https://artproaudio.com/framework/uploads/2018/06/utilities-cleanbox-II-angle.jpg)
It operates at nominally unity gain (ie, the output level is the same as the input level) and is ideal for converting between unbalanced outputs and balanced inputs, or vice versa, and for breaking ground loops.
It has a slightly more expensive (but far more versatile) sibling called the DTI which is essentially the same thing in a differently shaped box with a plethora of different parallel-wired connectors on each side (XLR, TRS and RCA-Phono). This makes it far more convenient for connecting different devices as well as for splitting and duplicating signals. (I have five of them at the last count as they are so extremely useful).
![Image](https://artproaudio.com/framework/uploads/2018/06/utilities-dti-angle-1200x675.jpg)
Then there's the CLEANboxPro which is a dual-channel 'level converter'.
![Image](https://artproaudio.com/framework/uploads/2018/06/utilities-cleanboxpro-front-angle.jpg)
It looks similar to the DTI, but it has volume knobs on the front and no TRS connectors!
Internally, this is a very different device, though. It is an active product that requires external power, and it is intended to connect unbalanced domestic equipment like video recorders etc to balanced professional equipment. To that end, it receives unbalanced (RCA-phono) inputs at a nominal -10dBV and provides +12dB boosted balanced outputs at +4dBu. It also receives balanced +4dBu inputs and attenuates them by 12dB to provide unbalanced outputs at -10dBV. (The actual gain is adjustable.)
The nature of the active circuitry means there is no galvanic isolation between inputs and outputs. It's a useful box for converting between consumer and professional equipment connections, especially if you need to also adjust the signal levels, and can also be used to interface between pro gear and fx pedals. But it will not help with ground-loop problems.
- Hugh Robjohns
Moderator -
Posts: 40004 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am
Location: Worcestershire, UK
Contact:
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Recommend a NS10 Amp?
James Perrett wrote: ↑Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:16 amAngelface78 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:17 pm But I am still a little confused concerning Class D amps as my research consensus was mostly to steer clear of them as they often introduce noise and require some sort of int built noise filter etc. I am clueless in this area so maybe you could explain this?!
Yes, Class D amps need some kind of filter on the output but that filter is built into the amplifier so isn't something that you need worry about (with a properly designed amp). Hypex based amplifiers are used by many mastering engineers and, while some mastering engineers have moved on to using the newer nCore modules, the older UcD modules (which are what the STA-400D uses) were highly regarded when they came out and still perform extremely well.
As far as noise is concerned, I use them with very efficient monitors in a very quiet room (any gear with a fan is placed outside the studio) and I have to put my ear right up to the speaker to hear any noise (which is just a very slight hiss).
If you want to see the full technical paper on the UcD amplifiers then it is explained in
https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_ ... lifier.pdf
The Hypex application note library is at
https://www.hypex.nl/p/application-notes-white-papers/
Thank you James Perrett for your helpful explanation of class d amps and for the link you kindly provided. I will continue to read up on the amp in question, but already I am seeing the brand name on some retailers websites, which is encouraging! Thank you for the recommendation. Do you think this would be a noticeable upgrade from my current Yamaha As301 amp?
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- Angelface78
Poster - Posts: 40 Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:56 pm