Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
I don't have any qualms at all about using a computer for recording on location. Assuming you take reasonable precautions reliability is at least as good as any 'conventional' hardware recorder these days. I use a MS Surface 'tablet' recording onto solid-state drives via a USB interface.
But personally, I tend only to use the computer approach for the largest of gigs with a high channel count, or where I really need a live safety backup.
I much prefer to use a portable hardware recorder for the convenience and focus — in my case a Nagra VI — and it's rare that I need more than 6 or 8 channels with most of the things I do these days.
I was so impressed with the Zoom F6. It's phenomenal for the money, and its compact size is astonishing. Six channels is enough for a lot of gigs, and 32-bit floating-point recording removes most concerns about headroom in unpredictable situations.
I think the preamps on my Nagra are marginally better, but no one would notice the difference in causal listening and the Zoom's performance is far better than we had access to just a couple of decades ago! I regret not buying the model I reviewed and it's on my wish-list to serve as an emergency backup for the Nagra.
But personally, I tend only to use the computer approach for the largest of gigs with a high channel count, or where I really need a live safety backup.
I much prefer to use a portable hardware recorder for the convenience and focus — in my case a Nagra VI — and it's rare that I need more than 6 or 8 channels with most of the things I do these days.
I was so impressed with the Zoom F6. It's phenomenal for the money, and its compact size is astonishing. Six channels is enough for a lot of gigs, and 32-bit floating-point recording removes most concerns about headroom in unpredictable situations.
I think the preamps on my Nagra are marginally better, but no one would notice the difference in causal listening and the Zoom's performance is far better than we had access to just a couple of decades ago! I regret not buying the model I reviewed and it's on my wish-list to serve as an emergency backup for the Nagra.
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
These folks are doing the F6 for a good price.
https://proav.co.uk/audio/zoom-f6-mult ... d-recorder
https://proav.co.uk/audio/zoom-f6-mult ... d-recorder
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Remarkably good... but it's not in stock! In fact, it doesn't seem to be in stock anywhere right now!
And don't forget you need to budget for some Sony L-batteries and a decent charger to make the unit practical in a location recording sense.
And don't forget you need to budget for some Sony L-batteries and a decent charger to make the unit practical in a location recording sense.
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Hugh Robjohns wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:30 am Remarkably good... but it's not in stock! In fact, it doesn't seem to be in stock anywhere right now!
And don't forget you need to budget for some Sony L-batteries and a decent charger to make the unit practical in a location recording sense.
I can’t be bothered with that then.
![Very Happy :D](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
![Very Happy :D](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
![Very Happy :D](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
I’ve put “hardware recorder” on my Christmas list though TBH I expect better results from the “peace and goodwill to all” entry.
Meanwhile, after yet more Reaper recommendations I found a YouTube showing a pretty clear screen being set up, armed and set off in understandable actions, so I’m trying that this afternoon. The download of Reaper itself was quick and simple. If I can get my dbx386 into the back of either a Scarlett 6i6 (2nd Gen) or my newer Audient ID14ii (with RCA-Toslink conversion) and 4 mikes running, I’m good!
This might turn out to be a good day. I could progress my recording skills, and I’ve already successfully downloaded a new pipe organ sample file to replace the corrupted one in my Nord C2D. Little victories …
Meanwhile, after yet more Reaper recommendations I found a YouTube showing a pretty clear screen being set up, armed and set off in understandable actions, so I’m trying that this afternoon. The download of Reaper itself was quick and simple. If I can get my dbx386 into the back of either a Scarlett 6i6 (2nd Gen) or my newer Audient ID14ii (with RCA-Toslink conversion) and 4 mikes running, I’m good!
This might turn out to be a good day. I could progress my recording skills, and I’ve already successfully downloaded a new pipe organ sample file to replace the corrupted one in my Nord C2D. Little victories …
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Similar to Hugh, I often use a computer (also Microsoft Surface - Pro 6 in my case) on location with no issues, with RME interfaces, Soundcraft UI24, or Dante DVS.
Usually using Reaper as I'm used to it and it can easily be customised to suit different recording requirements, but I've used Pyramix and ProTools with no issues too. As long as you take care of your computer it should be fine!
If you're one of these people that need to turn on the computer before you go and make your coffee and breakfast just so that it's booted up by the time you need to start working, then it might not be such a good idea![Wink ;)](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
For lower channel counts we have a Sound Devices MixPre10, which is a joy.
Usually using Reaper as I'm used to it and it can easily be customised to suit different recording requirements, but I've used Pyramix and ProTools with no issues too. As long as you take care of your computer it should be fine!
If you're one of these people that need to turn on the computer before you go and make your coffee and breakfast just so that it's booted up by the time you need to start working, then it might not be such a good idea
![Wink ;)](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
For lower channel counts we have a Sound Devices MixPre10, which is a joy.
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- Aled Hughes
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
The Red Bladder wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:42 amJames Perrett wrote: ↑Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:27 amThe Red Bladder wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:30 pm We use only Reaper for classical and we do this for money!
Are you using either of these Source/Destination editing add-ons or are you using Reaper as it comes?
Straight out of the box - no magic extensions.
There is no such thing as classical music being different to record and edit, compared to any other type of music - music is music. Whether five or fifty people are playing, the process is pretty much the same for each type of recording - classical is acoustic, i.e. no MIDI and no synths, etc. But recording acoustic rock or folk or Abyssinian nose-flute playing - the processes are the same!
Recording classical music - Artist(s) come(s) to the studio and plays a section until he/she/it/they are totally happy with a passage and then crack on to the next bit - until we get to the end. I then FTP the audio to them and they piece together the bits they like by copying all those bits to a separate track. They send me the bare Reaper project file without the audio encapsulated. I stich it together and send it as an MP3 for approval. Improvements are made and a final WAV/88.2 version is sent to the label for mastering (or I get to use my own ears for mastering, or it is sent to a third-party mastering house).
As for any extensions - I have yet to find an extension to any DAW that didn't involve a great deal of fannying about for little or no benefit.
Yes it does take some work to get it set-up, but once it's done it's done.
But of course, the way you describe it above, you're not actually doing the editing yourself, so it stands to reason source/destination wouldn't be of much use to you!
But when you're doing the cuts yourself from numerous takes that don't have a timing reference (not just classical - I use it a lot for folk music, as well as pop/rock that's not recorded to click, and also some dialogue editing), source/destination editing is a very fast and powerful tool - there's a reason why it's a big selling point for the more classical-orientated DAWs (Pyramix, Sequioia, SADiE etc), and once I started using it I couldn't imagine being without it.
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- Aled Hughes
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
WRT location recording, my computer is reserved for such tasks. It's an older HP running Windows 7 and upgraded with SSDs. That's all it does, and it's never let me down. It still has Firewire in case I want to use my older interfaces for a 24-track gig.
I do record a backup to camera or portable recorder. (The Zoom F6 is a nice device for the money!).
I looked at Reaper a few years ago and it felt then like Linux did vs MacOS or Windows; just too "geeky". I don't want to have to set lots of things up if another product doesn't require me to. I appreciate the flexibility, but just need to get on with the work. I assume it's much better now, too. There is also the issue of cost. It was actually more expensive than the full Studio One Pro when I made my purchase. I also use some of the sound content, and Notion.
Studio One 6 (announced yesterday) allows for custom layouts. The Artist version would be all that was required.
I do record a backup to camera or portable recorder. (The Zoom F6 is a nice device for the money!).
I looked at Reaper a few years ago and it felt then like Linux did vs MacOS or Windows; just too "geeky". I don't want to have to set lots of things up if another product doesn't require me to. I appreciate the flexibility, but just need to get on with the work. I assume it's much better now, too. There is also the issue of cost. It was actually more expensive than the full Studio One Pro when I made my purchase. I also use some of the sound content, and Notion.
Studio One 6 (announced yesterday) allows for custom layouts. The Artist version would be all that was required.
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
sonics wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:53 pm WRT location recording, my computer is reserved for such tasks. It's an older HP running Windows 7 and upgraded with SSDs. That's all it does, and it's never let me down. It still has Firewire in case I want to use my older interfaces for a 24-track gig.
I do record a backup to camera or portable recorder. (The Zoom F6 is a nice device for the money!).
I looked at Reaper a few years ago and it felt then like Linux did vs MacOS or Windows; just too "geeky". I don't want to have to set lots of things up if another product doesn't require me to. I appreciate the flexibility, but just need to get on with the work. I assume it's much better now, too. There is also the issue of cost. It was actually more expensive than the full Studio One Pro when I made my purchase. I also use some of the sound content, and Notion.
Studio One 6 (announced yesterday) allows for custom layouts. The Artist version would be all that was required.
Reaper is perfectly functional 'as is', but it's true that really does pay to delve in and change a few things to change your way of working. I'm left scratching my head a bit when faced with working on a fresh install I must admit!
It's the price of flexibility, and I agree that if that doesn't appeal then another solution with a well-defined workflow can be better.
I think Sam Inglis wrote something a few years ago about the benefit of something like ProTools with an established and defined workflow and shortcuts etc. that just works the same way on every system. I do get his point.
I use ProTools fairly often (not by choice, really) and Pyramix - what I tend to do is take what I like from those programs and try and find a way of replicating it in Reaper (eg. the source/destination editing discussed in this thread, and object/item selection in ProTools). It works well for me, but does require investing time in setting it all up, as mentioned.
Regarding cost, I think it's £60-ish for a non-commercial/small business license, and around £200 for a professional license.
Aled
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- Aled Hughes
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Aled Hughes wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 3:59 pm Reaper is perfectly functional 'as is', but it's true that really does pay to delve in and change a few things to change your way of working.
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm glad that my impression of Reaper seems to be correct. We spend enough time these days on computers, setup, plugin installation etc. that I wanted a DAW that doesn't require much setup input, yet is flexible enough when required. I had decided to move away from Cubase and Pro Tools. There are many other reasons why SO looked like the best tool for me, and it cost me (IIRC) just $99 as an upgrade from the Artist version which came free with some hardware!
Reaper gets recommended a lot for non-professionals, but it seems to be exactly the worst choice for many of those people, IMO. (I've been teaching music tech for over thirty years, off and on.) Cubase Artist or Studio One Artist, for example, always seem like better options for beginners.
...and now AVID have announced Pro Tools Intro!
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
I have only used Reaper since returning 'into the box' so maybe my familiarity is leading me astray, but I didn't, and still don't find Reaper 'geeky' in the way that Linux is (sorry foldy
), for me it just worked straight out of the box*. I use Reaper for stereo editing as well as multitracking and much prefer it to Wavelab (which I was using before). Any DAW has a learning curve, it made sense to me to decide I was going to use Reaper and get on with it so I don't understand your assertion that Reaper is the worst possible choice for some beginners**? IMHO any DAW is going to give them trouble until they learn the basics and if my luddite drummer mate can learn to record and export drum tracks in Reaper anybody can ![Very Happy :D](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
BTW I'm interested to know a bit more about 'source/destination' editing?
* Whatever system you use there is, inevitably, a certain amount of setting up, labelling and assigning channels and such like but if I'd used any other DAW I don't imagine it would have been any more 'user friendly' to achieve those tasks.
** I'm a bit of a geek TBF but I came from tape to Cubase, then to hardware digital and finally back to a Mac Pro based Reaper system and I didn't find Cubase 'intuitive' until I had invested some time learning it all those years ago.
![Blush :blush:](./files/images/smilies/icon_blush.gif)
![Very Happy :D](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
BTW I'm interested to know a bit more about 'source/destination' editing?
* Whatever system you use there is, inevitably, a certain amount of setting up, labelling and assigning channels and such like but if I'd used any other DAW I don't imagine it would have been any more 'user friendly' to achieve those tasks.
** I'm a bit of a geek TBF but I came from tape to Cubase, then to hardware digital and finally back to a Mac Pro based Reaper system and I didn't find Cubase 'intuitive' until I had invested some time learning it all those years ago.
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Sam Spoons wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:08 pmBTW I'm interested to know a bit more about 'source/destination' editing?
It's no more complex than the term describes.
You have two time-lines or playlists or EDLs — whatever the DAW calls them — in the same project. The original audio is loaded into the Source playlist, and the wanted parts are then basically cut and pasted into the Destination playlist to build up the wanted final track.
Typically, you'd start with the best master take, and then maybe you'd want to replace one or more short sections within that master.
To do that you'd identify the start and end of the section to be replaced in the Destination, and the start and end of the required retake in the Source — hence 'four point editing — and then activate the replacement edit insert.
A benefit of the four-point editing is that if the retake is slightly shorter or longer than the section being replaced, the remaining material in the Source playlist slides up or down as necessary so you have seamless edits. No overlaps and no gaps.
It's also usually possible to do three point edits where one of the four edit marks is intentionally omitted.
For example, when depositing the initial master track into the Destination you might have start and end points in the Source material but only a start point in the Destination.
Hope that gives you an overview.
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
I may be missing something but that sounds an awful lot like comp'ing in Reaper.
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
I took to Reaper straight away, after using Sequoia it was a walk in the park.
All of a sudden things became obvious, plus, I could "also" go in and customise, heavily.
Things like Logic, seem to be a bit like Garage Band, you feel there’s someone making a lot of the decisions for you, in an attempt to make it feel very "friendly" in typical Apple world fashion, but the last thing I found about it was that it was far from logical, and I’m a Mac owner.
All of a sudden things became obvious, plus, I could "also" go in and customise, heavily.
Things like Logic, seem to be a bit like Garage Band, you feel there’s someone making a lot of the decisions for you, in an attempt to make it feel very "friendly" in typical Apple world fashion, but the last thing I found about it was that it was far from logical, and I’m a Mac owner.
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
So I did actually download Reaper today, and had multiple mikes recording very quickly. Would have been quicker still if I’d checked my mac’s sound settings first, but I’ll take that on the chin.
Yes, I can see there’s lots in it, but it didn’t get in the way.
I even managed to get the SPDIF co-ax output from the dbx386 into the ID14’s Toslink SPDIF input with zero drama beyond a moment or three’s panic when I couldn’t find the converter I just bought. Silly me, I should have looked on the floor first.
Yes, I can see there’s lots in it, but it didn’t get in the way.
I even managed to get the SPDIF co-ax output from the dbx386 into the ID14’s Toslink SPDIF input with zero drama beyond a moment or three’s panic when I couldn’t find the converter I just bought. Silly me, I should have looked on the floor first.
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Hugh Robjohns wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:11 pmSam Spoons wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:08 pmBTW I'm interested to know a bit more about 'source/destination' editing?
Hope that gives you an overview.
Thanks for that.
I use a method utilizing the ripple feature in Studio One. AFAICS I might use a mouse click or two more, but I don't think it's that different. Does anyone know if there anything about a system dedicated to S/D editing that might be better? I know it would be more expensive!
This article from SOS in 2018 describes this feature, which was one of those that encouraged me to start using Studio One as my DAW for everything.
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
tacitus wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:14 pm So I did actually download Reaper today, and had multiple mikes recording very quickly. Would have been quicker still if I’d checked my mac’s sound settings first, but I’ll take that on the chin.
Yes, I can see there’s lots in it, but it didn’t get in the way.
I even managed to get the SPDIF co-ax output from the dbx386 into the ID14’s Toslink SPDIF input with zero drama beyond a moment or three’s panic when I couldn’t find the converter I just bought. Silly me, I should have looked on the floor first.
You’re right, nothing gets in the way, you can set up a basic template and save that, and then go as deep as you want, but all the most useful stuff that you use all the time, is just right there.
I take my hat off to Reaper, it’s amazing those guys can offer it like they do, just beyond.
Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Thanks Hugh, I do more or less that when editing in Reaper by splitting the source track and dragging and dropping (or copying) the wanted audio into a new track. Reaper has a feature that I find very useful in that if you drag the ends of a cut section it expands to include the audio that came before and/or after the section you'd copied so you don't have to redo a cut that was slightly out of place. I'm guessing that other DAWs have similar but, as I said above, I haven't used any other than Reaper for a very long time.
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
sonics wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:43 pm
Reaper gets recommended a lot for non-professionals, but it seems to be exactly the worst choice for many of those people, IMO. (I've been teaching music tech for over thirty years, off and on.) Cubase Artist or Studio One Artist, for example, always seem like better options for beginners.
...and now AVID have announced Pro Tools Intro!
They're all as difficult/ easy to learn as each other, at this stage. Reaper has a lot going for it educationally. The free Kenny Gioia tutorials are exemplary for the techniques of teaching via "offline" video (i.e. teacher not present). You won't find better for any other DAW, IME. Except maybe Kenny's Pro Tools ones
![Smile :)](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
BTW Reaper has Ripple edit. It's much like Premier Pro's editing experience, which was nice for my students, but now they're all moving to DaVinci Resolve. But again, that's not much different, for a beginner, than anything else (except Avid Media Composer which is tough to get into IME).
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Sam Spoons wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:15 pm Reaper has a feature that I find very useful in that if you drag the ends of a cut section it expands to include the audio that came before and/or after the section you'd copied so you don't have to redo a cut that was slightly out of place. I'm guessing that other DAWs have similar but, as I said above, I haven't used any other than Reaper for a very long time.
I think most DAWs do this in some fashion but so-called audio editors like Audacity don't - that's why (as I mentioned in a previous post) you shouldn't use an audio editor program for audio editing (although they are very useful for other things).
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
shufflebeat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:01 pm I may be missing something but that sounds an awful lot like comp'ing in Reaper.
Comping usually relies on all the takes already being musically in the correct place, and you simply choose the best one.
Source/destination is more useful when you have, for example, two takes of a choir singing, and you want to use one as the master take, but maybe take the first verse from the other take.
It's highly unlikely that both first verses would be exactly the same length, so simply replacing one with the other is not going to work. You'd need to cut the unwanted first verse, replace it with the wanted one, and then work on the end of the cut to make sure that it transitions back to the main take in an appropriate place.
With source/destination, you simply mark your 'source' (wanted audio) and mark your 'destination, hit the button, then the offending verse is replaced, and the following audio automatically shuffled to be in time with the edit - if you get your in/out points right to begin with, you're pretty much done.
Ripple editing works great in Reaper (and is part of what allows the Source/destination scripts to work). It's also neat that you have the option for Ripple to affect either one track or all tracks.
But on its own, it doesn't quite do what what S/D does so efficiently, although it's possible to work very fast with ripple editing too (eg it's quite easy to cut the unwanted audio, and then insert the wanted audio with a ripple edit, biut it's still one extra step on top of S/D, which adds up if you're doing hundreds of such edits on a project.
Sam Spoons wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:15 pm Thanks Hugh, I do more or less that when editing in Reaper by splitting the source track and dragging and dropping (or copying) the wanted audio into a new track. Reaper has a feature that I find very useful in that if you drag the ends of a cut section it expands to include the audio that came before and/or after the section you'd copied so you don't have to redo a cut that was slightly out of place. I'm guessing that other DAWs have similar but, as I said above, I haven't used any other than Reaper for a very long time.
Yes, S/D isn't muich use for that kind of editing - it's only really useful when you need to replace entire sections within a master take, and those sections don't line up exactly in time. It's not of much use to me when editing individual tracks within a multitrack project, for example.
I have two S/D scripts in Reaper - one is really simple and works within the original project - it uses markers 1+2 to define the source, and 3+4 for the destination. Hit a button an the edit is done. It's useful for a few quick edits in a small project, but it requires leaving those markers free for the task.
The other one is neater - it creates a duplicate 'source' project tab, and you use the time selection to define the edit areas in both tabs. Really useful if you have a project with many takes - they stay in the 'source' project and you get a neat, clean project tab with your edits done.
So, bottom line... it's useful if you need it! Any edit is possible with other means, but S/D if often quicker.
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- Aled Hughes
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Thanks Aled, that makes it very clear. Bottom line- Reaper is cool! ![Wink ;)](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
![Wink ;)](./files/images/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif)
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Thanks Aled, I hadn't quite understood how that worked (despite Hugh's excellent post). It now makes sense.
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Re: Reaper with ReaClassical extensions
Tomás Mulcahy wrote: ↑Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:54 pm
BTW Reaper has Ripple edit. It's much like Premier Pro's editing experience, which was nice for my students, but now they're all moving to DaVinci Resolve. But again, that's not much different, for a beginner, than anything else (except Avid Media Composer which is tough to get into IME).
If someone wants to edit audio (and not make music) with the possibility of needing to edit video too, Resolve is very hard not to recommend at the price! The audio facilities have improved vastly in the last few versions.