Neumann KH150 and KH120II

[porthoss78]

KH120II is now up on the Neumann site :-

https://www.neumann.com/en-en/products/ ... lapse-1831

Oooh, that's exciting! I look forward to these being reviewed in SOS!

Thanks for the heads up

Now we move on to waiting for the new KH310s...

[jtiis]

Just thought to give a brief (and first) first post.

Got my Neumann KH 120 Mk.ii today. Was moving up from some VERY basic speakers, so I have no great AB comparisons between other high on speakers and these, but just wanted to say WOW, I’m blown away by there fullness and clarity I’m hearing when playing Spitfire samples and for example Noire piano. I haven’t even done MA-1 set up or any other adjustments. Just plug them in and I’m one happy camper.

I’m home all day tomorrow so its going to be a great day at the keyboard!

[Hugh Robjohns]

A little bird tells me that a review of the new KH120 mk2 might appear in the next issue of Sound On Sound...

[porthoss78]

A little bird tells me that a review of the new KH120 mk2 might appear in the next issue of Sound On Sound...

That's something to look forward to! Can't wait to find out if they're better performers than the MK1 version (I'm going to assume they are...) and if they are comparable to the KH150's performance.

Thanks Hugh! I mean, thanks to the little loose beaked bird you've been speaking to

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think your assumption is a safe one... and yes, they are!

[porthoss78]

In that case I'd better start saving as I'm already sold on a set!

I wonder if the KH310 DSP version will be enough to temp you to upgrade, Hugh, or if the current ones are are already more than adequate...

Thanks again!

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm still very happy with all that my analogue 310s tell me... In terms of quality for money they are still exceptional.

I had a Trinnov system on them for a while which does all the frequency response and time domain straightening that a DSP upgrade would deliver, and while there were definitely audible improvements they weren't actually all that significant.

As a rough guide I'd say the analogue KH310s would rate a solid 8.5/10 on the Robjohns Scale of Sonic Perfection, and with advanced DSP correction they went up to a 9/10.

I have toyed with the idea of adding the 750 sub to benefit from DSP correction, too, but Then I'd have to make space for a sub.....

[dickiefunk]

A little bird tells me that a review of the new KH120 mk2 might appear in the next issue of Sound On Sound...

Look forward to reading that. I currently own the mk1’s which I’ve had for over 12 years. They are great monitors and offer excellent value for money. However, I wonder if it would be worth upgrading these to the new mk2?
I’m using an Eve TS108 sub with these which is useful but not perfectly integrated with the KH120’s.
I am also considering swapping the Eve TS108 for the Neumann KH750 but I would miss some of the useful features of the TS108 (particularly the excellent remote control) as this allows me to power the sub on and off, mute the sub, have full control of balancing the volume of the sub and adjust the crossover from the comfort of my mixing chair.
Another option I’m considering is selling both my KH120’s and Eve TS108 and just get the KH120II’s as I would like to declutter my room. I have also considered replacing my monitors for the KH150’s but this would be a much more expensive route.

One thing worth noting is the current MA1 software doesn’t support the KH120II’s and whilst this is in the works, Neumann have said this will take some time.

Not sure which route to go for my small mixing room?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I currently own the mk1’s which I’ve had for over 12 years. They are great monitors and offer excellent value for money. However, I wonder if it would be worth upgrading these to the new mk2?

They are great monitors, so why change? Do you feel they are restricting your ability to mix? I don't see the point of changing just because something newer has come along. If you can identify deficiencies then fine, but if it's getting the job done there are probably more beneficial ways of spending your money.

I am also considering swapping the Eve TS108 for the Neumann KH750...

That would make a lot of sense. Far better sub integration and DSP alignment (bringing 95%) of the mk ii improvements with it!

...but I would miss some of the useful features of the TS108 (particularly the excellent remote control) as this allows me to power the sub on and off, mute the sub, have full control of balancing the volume of the sub and adjust the crossover from the comfort of my mixing chair.

Adjusting the crossover and volume is something that should only need to do once, during installation. Muting the sub could be done by a decent monitor controller, although I don't see the point. If you want to hear what a track sounds like with less bass switch to a grot-box second monitor.

Another option I’m considering is selling both my KH120’s and Eve TS108 and just get the KH120II’s as I would like to declutter my room.

While the mk iis do have more bass extension than the originals its nowhere near sub territory, so you may find yourself disappointed in that respect.

I have also considered replacing my monitors for the KH150’s but this would be a much more expensive route.

If the piggy bank is bulging I'd go the 750dsp /MA1 route, personally... or improve the room acoustics.

[ConcertinaChap]

Speaking as someone considering getting the KH750 to go with my KH120s, having purchased the MA1 kit and used it would one have any further use for the mic? I assume it must have a flat response over a wide range but I've already got a pair of Earthworks QTC1s covering that brief.

CC

[dickiefunk]

I currently own the mk1’s which I’ve had for over 12 years. They are great monitors and offer excellent value for money. However, I wonder if it would be worth upgrading these to the new mk2?

They are great monitors, so why change? Do you feel they are restricting your ability to mix? I don't see the point of changing just because something newer has come along. If you can identify deficiencies then fine, but if it's getting the job done there are probably more beneficial ways of spending your money.

I am also considering swapping the Eve TS108 for the Neumann KH750...

That would make a lot of sense. Far better sub integration and DSP alignment (bringing 95%) of the mk ii improvements with it!

...but I would miss some of the useful features of the TS108 (particularly the excellent remote control) as this allows me to power the sub on and off, mute the sub, have full control of balancing the volume of the sub and adjust the crossover from the comfort of my mixing chair.

Adjusting the crossover and volume is something that should only need to do once, during installation. Muting the sub could be done by a decent monitor controller, although I don't see the point. If you want to hear what a track sounds like with less bass switch to a grot-box second monitor.

Another option I’m considering is selling both my KH120’s and Eve TS108 and just get the KH120II’s as I would like to declutter my room.

While the mk iis do have more bass extension than the originals its nowhere near sub territory, so you may find yourself disappointed in that respect.

I have also considered replacing my monitors for the KH150’s but this would be a much more expensive route.

If the piggy bank is bulging I'd go the 750dsp /MA1 route, personally... or improve the room acoustics.

I guess I was wondering how much of an improvement the mk2's would be and if that would have any noticeable mixing benefits?

The sub looks like the most beneficial and cost effective move.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I guess I was wondering how much of an improvement the mk2's would be and if that would have any noticeable mixing benefits?

Some, and probably nothing dramatic.

The law of diminishing returns applies here. There's a huge difference between, say Absolute 2s and KH120s, but a relatively small difference between the mk1 and mk2.

There is a difference, of course. The mk2 is obviously better in some respects, but those benefits can largely be obtained in other ways and potentially more cost-effectively.

The sub looks like the most beneficial and cost effective move.

I think so... but maybe you should try and get to hear some mk2s before committing.

[porthoss78]

I'm still very happy with all that my analogue 310s tell me... In terms of quality for money they are still exceptional.

I had a Trinnov system on them for a while which does all the frequency response and time domain straightening that a DSP upgrade would deliver, and while there were definitely audible improvements they weren't actually all that significant.

As a rough guide I'd say the analogue KH310s would rate a solid 8.5/10 on the Robjohns Scale of Sonic Perfection, and with advanced DSP correction they went up to a 9/10.

I have toyed with the idea of adding the 750 sub to benefit from DSP correction, too, but Then I'd have to make space for a sub.....

That's good to hear about the Trinov not adding much to your setup, I think that also goes goes to prove how much you can improve your monitors by making sure your room is well treated (which yours is).

Perhaps you can save the KH750 sub for your next larger room

I like the Robjohns Scale of Sonic Perfection (RSOSP) score, hope we get some more of these in the future!

[dickiefunk]

I guess I was wondering how much of an improvement the mk2's would be and if that would have any noticeable mixing benefits?

Some, and probably nothing dramatic.

The law of diminishing returns applies here. There's a huge difference between, say Absolute 2s and KH120s, but a relatively small difference between the mk1 and mk2.

There is a difference, of course. The mk2 is obviously better in some respects, but those benefits can largely be obtained in other ways and potentially more cost-effectively.

The sub looks like the most beneficial and cost effective move.

I think so... but maybe you should try and get to hear some mk2s before committing.

One other option I’m considering is selling the sub and getting higher end headphones for mixing sub frequencies. If I go that route I may well change my KH120’s for the mkII versions for the added benefit of using the MA1 at a later date.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Just to stir the pudding once more... headphones are great for analysing bass free of misleading room modes. But... they don't provide that visceral, trouser flapping energy that a subwoofer gives.

The 750DSP sub with the MA1 will correct your original mk1 KH120s, so you retain the best of all worlds... assuming your room's bass modes are reasonably controlled acoustically.

[Thomas Shea]

I am new here on the forum. TES Productions - Nebraska, USA - Soundclick.com/ThomasShea

Last year I decided to upgrade the monitors in my studio, which uses a distributed workstation concept instead of a consolidated method.

I decided to focus on all Neumann monitors - since I was impressed with their measurements (mainly on Audio Science Review) and wanted to have a consistent "family" sound.

So now I have KH 310's, KH 120's/KH 750, another pair of KH 120's and two pairs of KH 150's. All of them are used as very nearfield monitors - ie 1 to 1.3 meters from my listening position.

Although I am very impressed with all of them, I believe I am most impressed with the KH150's. The two most important things to me are a flat frequency response and low distortion. The KH 150's are, to me, quite remarkable. Neumann audio engineers did an excellent job of designing them. In addition to the excellent SOS review, the measurements on Audio Science Review show the results.

I am presently in the process of ordering a pair of KH 120 II's. Although I don't really need them, I am intrigued by them. I am particularly interested in comparing them to the KH 150's. I suspect that except for the bass extension, they will be quite similar.

I look forward to participating here on the SOS Forum. Thankyou

Tom

[Hugh Robjohns]

I expect they will be almost identical (apart from the bass extension) thanks to the linearisation that DSP allows!

While the KH310 and original KH120 are great speakers (especially the 310), their analogue technology inherently imposes certain compromises and limitations on sonic accuracy that are simply not present in the KH80, KH150 or KH120ii DSP speakers. These three are really in a class apart, and making direct comparisons isn't really a fair exercise.

Of course, adding external DSP alignment to these analogue speakers will realise most of the benefits of the integrated DSP technology.

[jaminem]

So now I have KH 310's, KH 120's/KH 750, another pair of KH 120's and two pairs of KH 150's. All of them are used as very nearfield monitors - ie 1 to 1.3 meters from my listening position.

Eh? - 5 sets of speakers all the same family sound and presumably at least some at the same workstation?

Unless you have 5 physical workstations (at which point feel free to ignore me) whats the point? surely you want different speakers at the same workstation to get a different perspective? i.e main monitors, some NS10's and a grotbox or other bandwidth limited speaker? This way you can get a better idea of how your mix translates on different speakers.

wondering what having several sets of the same type of speaker at a single workstation achieves exactly?

[Thomas Shea]

A legitimate question. I have three basic workstations for production.

1) Audient 4816 SE - with KH 150 monitors.

2) Reaper / PC / with several Avalon Design and Neumann outboard hardware units - with KH 310's and KH 120's/KH750. I like to have two different monitor systems here. Although they are very similar in sound, there is a small difference, which gives me a different perspective. Also, the KH 310's are .3 meters further away, with a slightly wider spread.

3) Mixing/Mastering station - SSL Big Six, Fusion, Bus+, UC1 and UF8 - with KH 150's and KH 120's. Here also I want to have a choice of monitors to compare the sound.

Let me know if you have any additional questions.

[Jorge]

A legitimate question. I have three basic workstations for production.

1) Audient 4816 SE - with KH 150 monitors.

2) Reaper / PC / with several Avalon Design and Neumann outboard hardware units - with KH 310's and KH 120's/KH750. I like to have two different monitor systems here. Although they are very similar in sound, there is a small difference, which gives me a different perspective. Also, the KH 310's are .3 meters further away, with a slightly wider spread.

3) Mixing/Mastering station - SSL Big Six, Fusion, Bus+, UC1 and UF8 - with KH 150's and KH 120's. Here also I want to have a choice of monitors to compare the sound.

Let me know if you have any additional questions.

Wow, you have a veritable laboratory in which you could compare different Neumann monitors! Very interesting.
Can you give us a sense of how the KH150s without a sub compare with the KH120/KH750 combination?

[Thomas Shea]

I wish I could post photos here but I do not have my photos on a server......

Anyway, I received a pair of KH 120 II's yesterday (from Sweetwater).

I spent a few hours comparing the KH 120 II's to KH 150's. I first balanced the volume and frequency controls to level match them. It was surprisingly easy. But it makes sense because the Neumann audio engineers seem to go to great lengths to make all of their monitors have that family sound (ie flat frequency response and low distortion).

I could tell no difference between the KH 150's and KH 120 II's except for a couple pieces of music with very low bass. As you know there are almost no pop or country or hip hop songs with any content below 40 Hz. First, there are almost no instruments that go that low. The lowest frequency of a bass guitar is 40 Hz. Second, music producers intentionally cut out off the bottom octave because they know how rare it is for any sound system to be able to reproduce those frequencies.

Anyway, I was surprised. I thought that I would be able to tell some kind of difference. I could not.

I will continue to compare these - and perhaps more importantly, compare the KH 120's to the KH 120 II's.

I should also note that I caution against any subjective opinions - including my own. I really only trust good scientific/engineering measurements. Besides, the measurements by Neumann, the best source is Audio Science Review. Amir's measurements of the KH 150's show them to be quite extraordinary. I await his measurements of the KH 120 II's.

Nevertheless I will provide my subjective impressions for the little that they might be worth.

[Wonks]

The low B0 string on a five-string bass goes down to 30.87Hz and they are pretty common these days.

[Hugh Robjohns]

True... and a lot of modern music has significant content in the bottom octave. I'm getting rumbles (mostly from synths) at 20-30-40Hz all the time.

And much as I'm sure Audio Science Review is creditable, it would be remiss of me on the Sound On Sound forums not to highlight our own Paul Ward reviews which always include detailed acoustic measurements and analysis.

[Jorge]

Thanks Tom. I believe SOS is preparing to publish a review of the KH120II in the June issue, so I expect that will include much objective information in addition to subjective impressions by highly experienced SOS staff.

I have been comparing the KH120A I have had for years with the KH120II I just received a few days ago, in a reasonably well treated rehearsal/recording studio in my basement. Much of the music we play is Cuban Timba and AfroCuban Jazz, which have very melodic and deep bass in most songs. At rehearsals I play back recordings of our group and other music for the whole group and the bass rolloff of the KH120II with no sub is still audible for the lowest bass notes. Our bass player has a 4 string and doesn't plan to get a 5 string. I use headphones for mixing the low bass but would like the studio monitors to have pretty flat playback capability down to 41 Hz. We hope to make an album in this studio as well and I would do the mixing but probably not the mastering.

So I am deciding whether to add a subwoofer to the KH120IIs (or KH120As) or to get the KH150 monitors to use without a sub instead of the KH120 plus sub. Hence my question to you about comparing those 2 configurations.