RELIABLE budget audio interface

[Arpangel]

I owned a Scarlett 6i6 and while some of these observations may not apply to the Clarett, some design aspects do seem similar.

1. The metering is pretty rudimentary, I really like to see a lot more detail via a bar graph. (I never really resolved this across audio interfaces until I moved to the DM3, which as you would expect has superb metering both as a mixer and in control surface mode). But some of the other interfaces discussed in this thread certainly offer better metering).

2. The preamp gain seemed very non-linear, a lot of gain change was compressed up in the top 1/4 of the gain knobs. This may not apply to the Clarett, I don't know.

3. I had bluescreens on occasion, something I've never had with any other interface and despite updating firmware and driver versions, I never achieved complete stability.

4. I also had USB ground loop noise issues, which I have not had with other interfaces e.g the KA6MK2.

Well, my Berry has been rock solid, none of those issues at all.
Metering is just one LED that turns to green or red, never troubled me.

[Hugh Robjohns]

The metering is pretty rudimentary, I really like to see a lot more detail via a bar graph.

An interface is intended to be used with a DAW which provides all manner of detailed bar graph metering of the converted digital signal, which is what matters. I think it reasonable for a budget interface to economise by using a simple signal present indicator.

The preamp gain seemed very non-linear, a lot of gain change was compressed up in the top 1/4 of the gain knobs.

This is a common issue across many budget preamps because of the core nature of the circuitry and the maths of gain changing. The gain/rotation linearity can be evened out by using special pots or switched resistor arrays, but both are expensive to implement so aren't on most budget preamps/interfaces.

Blue-green crashes and ground-loop issues are annoying, but are always related to the specific installation and its unique idiosyncrasies which are difficult both to predict and resolve.

[Arpangel]

The metering is pretty rudimentary, I really like to see a lot more detail via a bar graph.

An interface is intended to be used with a DAW which provides all manner of detailed bar graph metering of the converted digital signal, which is what matters. I think it reasonable for a budget interface to economise by using a simple signal present indicator.

The preamp gain seemed very non-linear, a lot of gain change was compressed up in the top 1/4 of the gain knobs.

This is a common issue across many budget preamps because of the core nature of the circuitry and the maths of gain changing. The gain/rotation linearity can be evened out by using special pots or switched resistor arrays, but both are expensive to implement so aren't on most budget preamps/interfaces.

Blue-green crashes and ground-loop issues are annoying, but are always related to the specific installation and its unique idiosyncrasies which are difficult both to predict and resolve.

I was about to say, all metering is done in my DAW, so I’ve never felt the need for them elsewhere.
And as for preamp gain it’s been as ajay describes on most budget stuff I’ve used, mixers etc, it’s not until you get something a bit more upmarket that changes.

[tea for two]

Nowadays reliable budget doesn't necessarily mean skimping on relative quality.

I've just purchased usb Class Compliant Focusrite Clarett 2pre usb (not thunderbolt) mk1, not mk2 Clarett+, £130* with 2years warranty 2nd hand used.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XHFvjU ... p=drivesdk
Clarett pre A-D is 118dB, D-A 118dB which is pretty high up in Hugh's converter measurements list.
https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... hp?t=86761
As Hugh says
"I consider anything that scores more than about 118dB as being in the territory of top-notch mastering quality equipment."
"Remember, though, that the AES17 measurement is only one aspect of a converter's or interface's performance, and I would caution against using it as the sole means of making purchase decisions... but it does provide a reliable qualitative comparison between devices, and that might be useful."

I can hear a difference in the mic pres compared to my cheaper audio interfaces : lower noise in Clarett mic ins EIN -129dB. Also specs wise the Clarett mic ins have more dynamic range although I haven't had an occasion to test this.

Important to me is Headphone out as I nearly always record, shape sounds, mix on headphones.
Clarett headphone out I can hear clarity more, separation better, increased accuracy in shaping sounds compared to my cheaper audio interfaces from budget range of Line6, M-Audio, Presonus, Zoom, their budget range headphone out also have a grittyness hurts my ears after a short while.

Clarett 2pre usb isn't standalone, although it is usb Class Compliant works with my 2018 ipad pro usbC port.
Clarett powered from a usb battery power bank that has 12V 1.5A out as this Romoss 30000mAh (approx 25000mAh in use) with a set of universal USB to DC in adapter plugs with the usb cable rated to 12V.
There's better Romoss version outputs : 20V 1.5A/ 15V 2A / 12V 2.5A.
There's even better usb battery power banks 65W outputs : 20V 3.25A/ 15V 3A/ 12 3A.

Have to set up Clarett in mac or wind focusrite control panel thereafter ready to use on ipad pro usbC port.
https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/ ... -iPad-Pro-

::

I returned fortnight earlier my repurchased Focusrite Forte which I previously had approx 6months after reading Hugh's converter list and SoS review : Forte 117dB A-D , 118dB D-A.
Even though Forte is same quality as Clarett 2pre, even though Clarett is based upon Forte, because Forte isn't, Clarett 2pre is usb Class Compliant.

::

This is just for me to think this way. Nobody else.
*£130 would feed 2 small families one month in this cost of living crisis.
£130 is more than the annual salary of millions of folk around the World.

[ef37a]

I am very interested in your comments Tea about headphone outputs.
I suspect many of the lower end brands use a rather grotty class D amplifier and the better stuff at least class AB?

Class D amplifiers have now of course reached a very high level of performance and are used in many (but not all!) high end monitors (though we never get to know their performance in isolation?) but really cheap low power devices are indeed likely to be "gritty".

I am a bit confused about this "class compliance" business. I understood that to be USB compliant with Windows an AI needed to be 48kHz and only 16 bits? Or are you talking macs?

Dave.

[James Perrett]

I am a bit confused about this "class compliance" business. I understood that to be USB compliant with Windows an AI needed to be 48kHz and only 16 bits? Or are you talking macs?

The Windows class compliant audio driver will only work up to 48kHz and 16 bits. This is a Windows limitation. Pretty much every other operating system (Mac, Linux, Android, IOS) can operate class compliant devices at higher sample rates with higher bit depths if the audio interface supports it.

I am a little surprised that no-one has come out with a free ASIO class compliant driver for Windows. It looks like Thesycon have one but it is only available to OEMs who use their chips.

However, having just had a bit of a search around, it appears that Windows 10 version 1703 and newer incorporate a new class compliant USB audio driver written by Thesycon which will do greater bit depths (up to 32 bits). However, to take advantage of it, your software would need to use the Microsoft driver models rather than ASIO and I don't know whether it would be as efficient as ASIO. I don't want to go uninstalling a working driver right now but maybe I'll give it a go the next time I get a new computer.

[tea for two]

I am very interested in your comments Tea about headphone outputs.
I suspect many of the lower end brands use a rather grotty class D amplifier and the better stuff at least class AB?
Class D amplifiers have now of course reached a very high level of performance and are used in many (but not all!) high end monitors (though we never get to know their performance in isolation?) but really cheap low power devices are indeed likely to be "gritty".

Only when I upgraded to relatively more expensive interface as Focusrite Forte, Focusrite Clarett I could use their headphone out extended periods.
On the budget interfaces I've had their headphone out on low volume their trifle grittyness, subtle harshness my ears found uncomfortable after a little while.

I am a bit confused about this "class compliance" business. I understood that to be USB compliant with Windows an AI needed to be 48kHz and only 16 bits? Or are you talking macs?
Dave.

For your Motu M4 (and M2, M6, M8) it is usb Class Compliant which means no drivers required, M4 is just plug and play in wind, android, mac, ios.
Although as JP said there's limitations in wind.
Also Motu M series is a bit sketchy on Linux according to some user reports.

If your android phone has a usbC port it might be able to power your Motu M4 without requiring a powered usb hub, then can record thru M4 into android.
My android phone redmi note 10pro usbC port powers my Zoom U44 then I can record thru my U44 into my android phone as U44 is usb Class Compliant no drivers required.
I didn't have the funds to purchase Motu M2 and Clarett 2pre else I would have so I could compare. M2 power requirements are lot less than Clarett 2pre usb mk1, so it would been easier to run M2 directly from android usbC port and ipad usbC port.

[tea for two]

maybe a standalone

right now it’s too low stakes (and im too inexperienced) to make that huge jump

Standalone at the low stakes budget end Olympus LS100 worth considering. John Willett as reputable as Hugh as a pro recording engineer with commercially released Classical Choral recordings, John Willett reviewed gear for SoS magazine used to post a far amount on SoS foruume rates Olympus LS100.
LS100 doubles as a usb audio interface yet it's basic as an audio interface with latency according to SoS magazine review by Tom Flint.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/olympus-ls100
LS100 is a decade older.
Yet it holds up not too shabbily according to this list as a standalone hand held recorder num19 on the list https://www.avisoft.com/recorder-tests/ posted by BoB Bickerton on SoS foruume Bob as reputable as Hugh.

Based on these I am considering LS100 should be available around $€£70 used 2nd hand

[Bob Bickerton]

…………….posted by BoB Bickerton on SoS foruume Bob as reputable as Hugh.

Just to be clear, I wouldn’t consider myself nearly as ‘reputable’ as Hugh……… the principal difference being that Hugh knows his stuff, whereas I just make it up. In fact a lot of what I do know has been gleaned from these forums, and much of that from Hugh himself!

Bob

[hi53610]

So i ended up picking up a motu m2 from thomann at a good price, then like Arpangel found a clarett 2pre usb at cex (ie second hand, but cost less than the motu)

have a month to decide which to return. Given that clarett was bought from a less reputable source, are there any issues i should look for? The one thing that stood out was how low the gain was, especially when comparing the two, but it seems to be a somewhat common complaint. only have one mic and my headphones

The motu seems to capture less dynamic range, with a warmer and more 'rounded' sound (that some might prefer?), but both are great really

[ef37a]

So i ended up picking up a motu m2 from thomann at a good price, then like Arpangel found a clarett 2pre usb at cex (ie second hand, but cost less than the motu)

have a month to decide which to return. Given that clarett was bought from a less reputable source, are there any issues i should look for? The one thing that stood out was how low the gain was, especially when comparing the two, but it seems to be a somewhat common complaint. only have one mic and my headphones

The motu seems to capture less dynamic range, with a warmer and more 'rounded' sound (that some might prefer?), but both are great really

Luurve to know how you are determining the dynamic range of those interfaces!

Not surprised that the M2 has a bit more gain it is easily good enough to use with a dynamic on speech. maybe even an SM7B?

The Clarett obviously has many more inputs than the MOTU. Might that be an issue in the future?

Dave.

[Drew Stephenson]

Others here have mentioned the 'gain bunching' (where a lot of the gain in in the last third/quarter of the dial) on the Clarett devices previously I think.

[James Perrett]

The one thing that stood out was how low the gain was, especially when comparing the two, but it seems to be a somewhat common complaint. only have one mic and my headphones

The gain is almost certainly there - but you have to be prepared to turn the gain control almost to max to find it. This is a very common problem with preamps that try to cover a wide gain range with one gain control while only using standard parts.

[sonics]

The motu seems to capture less dynamic range, with a warmer and more 'rounded' sound (that some might prefer?), but both are great really

How and what did you use for the comparison? Is that simply your impression, or do you have data to confirm that?

[tea for two]

I just make it up.

I wear makeup. Too much info for ere foruume

[tea for two]

I just purchased Audient iD4 mk2 today couldn't pass it up at the price it was in camden cash converters with 12months warranty. I had iD4 mk1 before, mk2 is supposed to be an improvement all round, it's stated specs read as pretty neat A-D 120dB, D-A 125dB, EIN -129dB.
https://support.audient.com/hc/en-us/ar ... ifications

To my surprise iD4 mk2 powers straight from
my android phone redmi note 10pro usbC port.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XmWPSq ... p=drivesdk
I can noodle Guitar Hi-Z input and use condenser phantom powered both at the same time thru iD4 mk2 into redmi note 10pro just as is, no external battery no powered usb hub.

[Qstick333]

I have a Motu M4 that has been bulletproof and great drivers, low latency.

As an added bonus, the company is quick with a response if needed.

[Arpangel]

…………….posted by BoB Bickerton on SoS foruume Bob as reputable as Hugh.

Just to be clear, I wouldn’t consider myself nearly as ‘reputable’ as Hugh……… the principal difference being that Hugh knows his stuff, whereas I just make it up. In fact a lot of what I do know has been gleaned from these forums, and much of that from Hugh himself!

Bob

On the contrary Bob, you just "don’t" make it up.
You make valuable observations based on experience, that I can certainly identify with, you do "know your stuff"

[Bob Bickerton]

Well maybe I was being too coy, but I do feel uncomfortable being put in the same category as Hugh.

Having said that, I did make the bit up about me making it up - so there's proof

Bob

[Arpangel]

Well maybe I was being too coy, but I do feel uncomfortable being put in the same category as Hugh.

Having said that, I did make the bit up about me making it up - so there's proof

Bob

No one is in the same category as Hugh, he probably thinks the same about me.

[tea for two]

Dear Bob you are World Class as a Classical Choral recording engineer.
Anybody that's been on SOS Forum a little while is aware of this.
I recall dear Hugh saying on ere foruume his dear wife thinks Hugh is always wrong.

[tea for two]

Audient iD4 mkII I purchased yesturday its stated claimed A-D 120dB places it in top 10, D-A 125.5dB places it in top 3 of Hugh's converter measurements list.
https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... hp?t=86761

https://support.audient.com/hc/en-us/ar ... ifications
I don't have the gear to verify iD4 mkII A-D D-A. Still for an interface £120 new, £70 I paid it's quite something. Also stated claimed EIN -129dB.

[James Perrett]

Those figures look like they may not be measured using the standard measurements that are normally quoted around here. When looking at EIN specs, the termination resistance and bandwidth must also be quoted. If they don't quote those then the spec is meaningless - and I'm surprised that such a meaningless spec appears on an Audient page.

Also, Hugh's dynamic range measurements are done to the AES17 standard. Audient don't quote any standard on that page.

[Wonks]

Julian Kraus measured the more expensive iD44 Mk II inputs as having a 116dB dynamic range A-weighted with 20Hz-20kHz range and a termination of 0 ohms.

119dB if you used the return input to bypass the preamp with a line-level signal.

And once again I realise just how much I hate using the Audient web site. It is soooooooo slow. Too many fancy graphics, not enough basic info.

[hi53610]

How and what did you use for the comparison? Is that simply your impression

Just my impression. Both are totally fine for my needs, but I need to return one of them

Others here have mentioned the 'gain bunching' (where a lot of the gain in in the last third/quarter of the dial) on the Clarett devices previously I think.

The gain is almost certainly there - but you have to be prepared to turn the gain control almost to max to find it.

At max gain it's still quite a bit less than the motu, but given how gain bunching is common observation I guess it's unlikely there's an issue with my specific device. Was just worried cause it's used and from cex. Thanks!

Probably gonna return the motu, which was more expensive