Watchmaker wrote:
OS's really do not need much more in the way of improvements.
Not sure about that...
For audio we really need an efficient real time operating system that can handle multiple incoming and outgoing data streams in a timely and predictable way. While MS and Apple have tried to achieve this with their general purpose desktop operating systems I think these things only really work because of the sheer computing power that we have available these days. We really shouldn't have to run tools like the DPC latency checker to get our programs to work these days.
"Once apon a time, long ago the Great Fathers of audio/music electronics came together for a pow-wow and LO! MIDI was born!
I have no idea how possible this is but IF the big boys in the music industry, RME, Focusrite, Roland etc and said, "**** you Ms and Apple! We are going to develop a proper, musicically oriented OS". Could it be done?
Dave.
What became of BEOS, the answer to the media industry's prayers
Oh well, had to happen one day. Back to a duel boot system again. I'll be keeping my win7 system and all the hardware and software and drivers that depend on it up and running for a good while longer, it just all works so well together and sounds so bloomin' good that to dump it now would break my heart... and my bank balance.
I suppose in a way, an OS, Win7 in this case, being abandoned can be a blessing in disguise. On the final day, the day the umbilical is cut, you can update the OS/computer, sever your connection to the internet, lock down the OS and never be bothered by updates again.
That being said I don't think that would suit an ITB setup as software manufacturers nudge us towards later OS's - but if more reliant on hardware, out the box, or if happy with the installed apps, then why bother updating
The balance seems to have shifted in favor of those who are blinded by profit, power and glory. No sooner are we happy and have a working system up and running but the unsettling pressure is on us to update...yet again! (((WARNING Security Updates Are Being SUSPENDED. You are now VULNERABLE to VIRUS'S and MALARIOUS CYDER ATTACKS. You must UPDATE NOW or your BALLS will DROP OFF and you will surely DIE))) Ultimately they just want to own us... "Your mine now".
Last edited by Guest on Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
envamt wrote:The balance seems to have shifted in favor of those who are blinded by profit, power and glory. No sooner are we happy and have a working system up and running but the unsettling pressure is on us to update...yet again! (((WARNING Security Updates Are Being SUSPENDED. You are now VULNERABLE to VIRUS'S and MALARIOUS CYDER ATTACKS. You must UPDATE NOW or your BALLS will DROP OFF and you will surely DIE))) Ultimately they just want to own us... "Your mine now".
Hm. The "working system" is very complex, and bugs and attack doors are discovered, and should be closed. What's that to do with profit and power?
Glory, yes. In general engineers are like musicians - they do new stuff because it's fun, and after a while the new stuff oftentimes becomes useful.
Win7 off-line is just fine, safe and stable. Cubase 10 etc. and all the plugs, soundcards etc. all work just great. Lets face it for making first class recordings most of us have all we need for years to come. Microsoft are a powerful company that maximizes its profits, if it didn't they would go bust. The hype tells us we need to move on and update, ok fair enough for those with big wallets.
My experience is that many IT development projects suffer form numerous changes, scope changes, new PM's every three months, new VPs every two. New tools to confuse, fewer tools to provide clarity. budget cuts. All of these are symptoms of a "leadership class" that neither grasps, nor deigns to grasp, an adequate understanding of operational considerations. Making money takes walking the beat and positioning a company in the market. This activity is unhealthy for humans individually and collectively. * edit: "frequently. Sometimes it's awesome, like SOS!"
That said, there are many extremely smart, if perhaps emotionally damaged, people programming moar and moar amazing code daily. Witness the amazing toys at my disposal for really an incredibly small price for honest to god magic.
Programs however, suffer the ignorance of creation and when put into the big bad world of, well..the world: challenges begin. From the rapacious and conscienceless beings elected in the US, UK , Germany and elsewhere, we get things like the NSA which hires the best, most amoral people to figure out how to break into everything. Legions follow.
Just to say an OS isn't simple an I/O routing device with a pretty voice, it also has to consider malicious actors. One can get rich off malicious actors. I did as a CISA for the last 7 years
Last edited by Watchmaker on Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Watchmaker wrote:
My experience is that many IT development projects suffer form numerous changes, scope changes, new PM's every three months, new VPs every two. New tools to confuse, fewer tools to provide clarity. budget cuts. All of these are symptoms of a "leadership class" that neither grasps, nor deigns to grasp, an adequate understanding of operational considerations. Making money takes walking the beat and positioning a company in the market. This activity is unhealthy for humans individually and collectively. * edit: "frequently. Sometimes it's awesome, like SOS!"
Agreed, but as the guy said, never confuse malice with stupidity.
You average IT project is as complex as a very large building, and imagine using new tools and materials every couple of years while at the same time building in ever more inaccessible places. An O/S is more like a town.
We just have no idea on how to build these things error-free, but we want ever more from them.
I blame Apple indirectly for the malaise at Microsoft!
With the success of iOS devices and the failure of MS (and Intel) to compete on new fronts MS panicked.
Look at the initial release of Windows 8.0 and tell me that wasn't produced by a company that was confused and lost.
It was a mid life crisis of an operating system.
They did sober up and put the Hawaiian shirts away and got back on track for a while.
W8.1 was a solid O/S which I prefer to Win7 easily.
Then with W10 they lost the plot again and kept moving the goal posts which is not what you want with an O/S that is used by 100s of millions as a productivity tool.
I felt forced to use W10 when building a new desktop last year even though I had a W8.1 license because MS changed their long term support plans.
That meant if you were building a PC with new hardware only W10 gave you long term support even though W8.1 is supported until January 2023.
So W8.x is the new Vista and has been locked in the basement like a troubled child.
It's a shame as 8.1 is a good half way house between 7 and 10.
If it was just about Win7 being discontinued and folks updating to a new OS then lovely but basically I don't trust Win10 not to spy on me, sensor my searches or profile me for adverts. That now goes for anything on-line. With the EU's un elected voting in Article 11 and 13 the other day the balance has shifted towards closing down certain types of free speech that they deem unsuitable. Theres so much more for the on-line musician to think of these days than just an OS, a DAW and some plugs-ins. Soon our DAW or certain plug-ins will need to be connected on-line all the time, they will monitor what were up to and our info sold to reduce the cost to us of there software. Do we have to be on-line for Roland Cloud plugs to work? Not sure.
CS70 wrote:
Agreed, but as the guy said, never confuse malice with stupidity.
You average IT project is as complex as a very large building, and imagine using new tools and materials every couple of years while at the same time building in ever more inaccessible places. An O/S is more like a town.
We just have no idea on how to build these things error-free, but we want ever more from them.
I love this reply. Indeed, as Donald Rumsfield so astutely noted, there are unknown uknowns... and there's the rub.
A question: If both malice and ignorance lead to undesirable outcomes, which is the greater curse? Personally I see them as largely indistinguishable, especially as stupidity is most often a (semi) voluntary condition.
Last edited by Watchmaker on Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Agharta wrote:I blame Apple indirectly for the malaise at Microsoft!
With the success of iOS devices and the failure of MS (and Intel) to compete on new fronts MS panicked.
Look at the initial release of Windows 8.0 and tell me that wasn't produced by a company that was confused and lost.
It was a mid life crisis of an operating system.
They did sober up and put the Hawaiian shirts away and got back on track for a while.
W8.1 was a solid O/S which I prefer to Win7 easily.
Then with W10 they lost the plot again and kept moving the goal posts which is not what you want with an O/S that is used by 100s of millions as a productivity tool.
I felt forced to use W10 when building a new desktop last year even though I had a W8.1 license because MS changed their long term support plans.
That meant if you were building a PC with new hardware only W10 gave you long term support even though W8.1 is supported until January 2023.
So W8.x is the new Vista and has been locked in the basement like a troubled child.
It's a shame as 8.1 is a good half way house between 7 and 10.
You are spot on there, even to the casual user, Win8 look like it had been produced at a tonka toy convention, it looked and felt like a pink Lada, with all the go faster stripes they could muster. I went straight from Win7 to WIn10. But it was clear from the start, Microsoft missed a trick, they sort of didn't see the tablet market coming. Yes there was the 'netbook' market which never really took hold, what was needed was a computer that the computer luddites could learn to love, so the result is the desktop market is still to a great extent Microsoft territory, with that phone/tablet market shared between Apple and Google. For Microsoft to try and shimmy in with a quasi phone/tablet OS was delusional.
I have adapted to WIn10 now that I have managed to jettison all the bling, penny muck and bric-a-brac it comes with, it really does feel slicker than Win7, that being said Win7 was XP come of age - true 64 bit etc but kept the understated desktop, instead of the Start Menu/Desktop so cluttered with useless trish trash it looked more like the back room of a charity shop
Watchmaker wrote:
A question: If both malice and ignorance lead to undesirable outcomes, which is the greater curse? Personally I see them as largely indistinguishable, especially as stupidity is most often a (semi) voluntary condition.
Ahah good question! Well, no great wisdom here, but I consider stupidity more dangerous.
I mean, explicit malice requires a plan and careful, perfect execution, and on complex things the same effect as above tend to blow up plans and execution. The most evident fallacy on most conspiracy theories is that in order to exists they would require much bigger work and planning than the real thing. It's just as difficult to do planned evil as to do planned good. Stupidity is much simpler..
Last edited by CS70 on Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My main Protools DAW, project studio machine is Windows 7. I just put the Windows 10 disk in and said 'go'. It says that my machine cannot be upgraded to Windows 10.
Oh man, does this mean it's time for a new studio box?
DC-Choppah wrote:My main Protools DAW, project studio machine is Windows 7. I just put the Windows 10 disk in and said 'go'. It says that my machine cannot be upgraded to Windows 10.
Oh man, does this mean it's time for a new studio box?
Depends whether it meant it can't be upgraded in situ directly from 7 to 10 or whether the hardware isn't supported.
If you are running W7 32 bit then not sure you can do a direct upgrade.
If you give the hardware specs then we can try and help.
Here is my studio box, running Windows 7 / 64 bit. I tried to do the upgrade to Windows 10 but it says the machine can't be upgraded.
SiSoftware Sandra
ID
Host Name : musicbox
Workgroup : WORKGROUP
Computer
Model : OEM System Product Name
Serial Number : System Ser**********
Chassis : Desktop
Mainboard : ASUS P5Q PRO TURBO
Serial Number : 1033734********
BIOS : AMI (OEM) 0701 10/08/2012
Total Memory : 4GB DIMM DDR2 DDR3
Video System
Monitor/Panel : FNI MAGNAVOX
(1600x1200)
Video Adapter : ATI Radeon HD 4600 Series (320 SM4.1 750MHz, 1GB DDR3 1.6GHz 128-bit, PCIe 2.00 x16)
Graphics Processor
OpenCL GP Processor : ATI Radeon HD 4600 Series (320SP 8C 750MHz, 512MB DDR3 1.6GHz 128-bit)
Peripherals
LPC Hub Controller 1 : ASUS LPC Interface Controller
LPC Legacy Controller 1 : T0 A5-13
Audio Device : ASUS HD Audio Controller
Audio Device : HIS (Hightech Information Systems) RV730XT Audio device [Radeon HD 4670]
Serial Port(s) : 1
Disk Controller : ASUS 4 port SATA IDE Controller
Disk Controller : ASUS 2 port SATA IDE Controller
Disk Controller : ASUS JMB361 AHCI/IDE
USB Controller 1 : ASUS USB UHCI Controller #4
USB Controller 2 : ASUS USB UHCI Controller #5
USB Controller 3 : ASUS USB UHCI Controller #6
USB Controller 4 : ASUS USB EHCI Controller #2
USB Controller 5 : ASUS USB UHCI Controller #1
USB Controller 6 : ASUS USB UHCI Controller #2
USB Controller 7 : ASUS USB UHCI Controller #3
USB Controller 8 : ASUS USB EHCI Controller #1
FireWire/1394 Controller 1 : ASUS VT6315 Series Firewire Controller
SMBus/i2c Controller 1 : Intel ICH SMBus
Printers and Faxes
Printer : Microsoft XPS Document Writer (600x600, Colour)
Printer : Foxit Reader PDF Printer Driver (600x600, Colour)
Fax : Microsoft Shared Fax Driver (200x200)
Printer : Canon MG5400 series Printer (USB, Colour)
Printer : HP Universal Printing PS (600x600, USB, Colour)
More than likely either the Intel P45 chipset or the Radeon HD 4600 GPU would be the issue if it's a hardware incompatibility.
If it's the graphics card you can probably get a newer one with W10 support cheaply enough.
Agharta wrote:More than likely either the Intel P45 chipset or the Radeon HD 4600 GPU would be the issue if it's a hardware incompatibility.
If it's the graphics card you can probably get a newer one with W10 support cheaply enough.
Indeed, it appears that the Radeon hd4600 graphics card is not compatible with Windows 10 and there are no new drivers being made for it. I can see that plenty of folks have Windows 10 running on this Motherboard.
Does anyone know what a basic display adapter is that would work? I use an HDMI cable to a big TV for a monitor. I don't need any fancy graphics, and don't play games. Just ProTools. I don't feel like I need a fancy graphics card, and I need something without an additional fan to keep the rig silent.
I would use Newegg as they allow you to filter based on whether cards are passively cooled or not.
Then sort by price and note the cheaper GPUs and check the manufacturer for driver support.
Once you have chosen a chip you can check prices elsewhere of course.
If for some reason someone wants a higher power GPU for other purposes there are quite a few that will run in fanless mode until they are pushed hard when gaming etc.
The same is true of power supplies.
So it's fairly easy to build a system that is quiet when only stressing the CPU when using a DAW but still has the grunt to run a 200w GPU when required.
Last edited by Agharta on Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Agharta wrote:More than likely either the Intel P45 chipset or the Radeon HD 4600 GPU would be the issue if it's a hardware incompatibility.
If it's the graphics card you can probably get a newer one with W10 support cheaply enough.
Indeed, it appears that the Radeon hd4600 graphics card is not compatible with Windows 10 and there are no new drivers being made for it. I can see that plenty of folks have Windows 10 running on this Motherboard.
Does anyone know what a basic display adapter is that would work? I use an HDMI cable to a big TV for a monitor. I don't need any fancy graphics, and don't play games. Just ProTools. I don't feel like I need a fancy graphics card, and I need something without an additional fan to keep the rig silent.
I too use a basic graphics Radeon 550 card that outputs up to 4K resolution and use a 4K tv as my monitor, works great, though I do find the 3840 x 2160 resolution a bit too high. It's a 40" monitor and the 3200 x 1800 resolution quite adequate
Agharta wrote:
Then sort by price and note the cheaper GPUs and check the manufacturer for driver support.
Just to add to this for a little bit of extra clarity for anyone following, the chipset manufacturer and not the card itself tends to be the best choice when digging up the latest drivers. The unified drivers that AMD and Nvidia provide are generation wide, so whilst most card makers will cease updating their product page drivers you can normally locate some support for a good few years longer on most cards that get released if you go straight to the source.
Passive cards are becoming rarer these days and it's a tad annoying. Nvidia's latest models were the last gen 1030's and 1050's (although the 2030s haven't arrived yet) and the last AMD's I can recall was the R5 230's which I don't think even have driver support at this point.
Hybrid cards are indeed the way forward at this point, but they tend to only include "3D Active" or whatever it's called this month on certain premium and often higher end cards. In the mid-range, they often focus on fan profiling instead and which in a lot of cases is nowhere near as effective.
Sat here wondering if the Intel discrete range will help to rectify this whenever it arrives, or if they are just going to aim at the gamers with it.
Just reporting in that I successfully updated the studio Box to Windows 10. I swapped the graphics card out for a MSi GT 710 which is fanless and supports Windows 10. That was the only hardware I changed and Windows 10 went right in.
Agharta wrote:
Then sort by price and note the cheaper GPUs and check the manufacturer for driver support.
Just to add to this for a little bit of extra clarity for anyone following, the chipset manufacturer and not the card itself tends to be the best choice when digging up the latest drivers.
Thanks for clarifying that Pete as I automatically think of the chip manufacturer rather than the board manufacturer so failed to make that distinction clear.
Last edited by Agharta on Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
