Perfectly mixed song sounds bad on mobile devices from Youtube

[Hugh Robjohns]

I already mentioned the difference between ILD- and ITD-based stereophony which you should be familiar with if you ever worked as an audio engineer.

Do you have any idea who you're patronising here?

Aside from that I would appreciate if you keep things professional and civil. No more personal attacks please.

There was no personal attack. The laughing emoji highlighted my lighthearted attempt to point out that your opinion is not fact, and there are some very experienced, successful and highly credited professional mixers contributing here who work almost exclusively with headphone mixing.

Yes, the headphone experience is different from the loudspeaker experience, for a host of technical reasons, and most people find mixing easier on loudspeakers. But, particularly when using cardinal panning and ILD techniques, mixing on headphones is certainly a skill that can be learned.

[Urthlupe]

I would appreciate if we could talk about audio engineering. I would appreciate if we keep things professional and civil to learn from each other and to make progress. There are plenty of platforms for pointless argumentum ad hominem fights like Reddit or X. It's your choice if this forum is better than that - or not. I want it to be better.

You’ve fundamentally misunderstood this place bud.

Take a breath and a little time to figure out what happens here - worthwhile considerate contributions are valued - you seem to be very capable of that.

Loopy

[bencuri]

I can show you something however that is my genre, and I used that as a direct inspiration for this recent project:

https://youtu.be/VDdKk6-mSuA?si=IV7dRMbkOEoSAvEX&t=106

It suffers from the same symptoms like my mix. Good on quality speakers, bad on low end I did not even notice it so far, just now that I have problems with my project.

That track sounds like it was mixed by the drummer

That's not a good reference track and I'm not surprised that it has problems on other systems. It seems that you prefer what most people would consider to be a skewed sound with excessive bass. That's fine if you are just doing it for yourself but if you are hoping to create something for release then you need to re-calibrate your ears and tastes towards a sound that is more universal.

One other thought - how loud are you listening when you mix through the hifi speakers? Our perceptions change with different volume levels and I like to mix at fairly low levels as it is too easy to make a mix sound impressive at high volumes. You have to work much harder if you want a mix to sound good at low volumes.

I have been aware of this concept, to recalibrate my ear to make that mix more cross platform. But the problem is: very often in this genre, if I do so, the result will be a pain to listen to, for me, on HiFi. And it upsets me that there is the expensive, great system, and I cannot sit down and enjoy things, but I need to limit the experience to headphones and lower grade desktop speakers, or the car, if I want the mix to be optimized for what most people listen to music on. Interestingly from other genres like rock, pop, jazz, world, I never had this problem, I have a big collection of CDs and they usually work well cross platform, except for some rare cases.

Anyway I usually mix at middle volume.

[James Perrett]

And it upsets me that there is the expensive, great system, and I cannot sit down and enjoy things...

I'd agree that some of the examples that you have provided sound harsh but the examples of things that sound good to you sound wrong to me.

Would it be possible to try an experiment? Take a listen to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmjaLoNNZ_A

or, if you have Qobuz or a similar lossless streaming subscription, find it on your favourite service.

Does that sound right or wrong to you on your favourite hifi system?

[tea for two]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmjaLoNNZ_A

Listening on my recently acquired Shure Srh1540 closed back:
everything is nicely in space, whole instrumental tastefully remastered, clarity, Bass well represented, there's nothing that hurts my ears my primary consideration nowadays.

As you did this on Tannoy Berkeley in your previous studio gives me confidence in my Srh1540 to mix even though they are closed they are the best cans I've purrchased compared to my open K712 K702 Hd560s Hd599 DT880pro AthR70x I purrchased amongst others. Auditioned upto £3K headphones. Sonarworks fwiw write Srh1540 are the most neutral closed backs they tested. I haven't had such confidence in any other cans I've had although this could well be because my ears have gone to pot lol.

[tea for two]

there are some very experienced, successful and highly credited professional mixers contributing here who work almost exclusively with headphone mixing.

Yes, the headphone experience is different from the loudspeaker experience, for a host of technical reasons, and most people find mixing easier on loudspeakers. But, particularly when using cardinal panning and ILD techniques, mixing on headphones is certainly a skill that can be learned.

Article written by Professor Susan Rogers at Berklee.
https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advi ... eive-music

So to say finding cans suitable for our head shape ear shape ear position goes some way towards improved mixes on cans.

::

My weirrrd head shape gollum ears means cans as Akg K712 which Elf uses for commercial professional released mixes, I just couldn't get the Bass right with my K712 in my mixes. Elf could easily sort it on K712.
Shure Srh1540 just fits me better, due to better fit : my mixes bottom have improved, drastically even in some pieces, which ofcourse makes the pieces clearer improved mix overall. Helps Srh1540 are pretty neutral across the range.

[bencuri]

And it upsets me that there is the expensive, great system, and I cannot sit down and enjoy things...

I'd agree that some of the examples that you have provided sound harsh but the examples of things that sound good to you sound wrong to me.

Would it be possible to try an experiment? Take a listen to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmjaLoNNZ_A

or, if you have Qobuz or a similar lossless streaming subscription, find it on your favorite service.

Does that sound right or wrong to you on your favorite hifi system?

Sorry for replying this late. But I have an old operating system and it was a challenge to run Tidal on it. I wanted to listen to it the best quality to be able to examine it correctly.

So you asked whether it sounds good to me or not. Well, generally speaking it sounds good. But the overall sound is quite moderate. I also feel a bit of box sound, it lacks space, i think this is because the bass is also moderate. But the good thing is that it is quite steady, there are no random boomings. And the instrument relations are in balance, that I think is the most important. Maybe the snare and the toms are a bit loud, they protrude from the sphere of the tune somewhat, but this is not very serious, so it does not happen on the level to be annoying. And the quality of the instruments are good, everything sounds nice, nothing is grainy. The snare might be the only exception: for me it has a certain box/enclosed sound, too much middle (or middle/low?) dominated, I like when its dominated by higher harmonics, but still not the end of the world as is. Maybe the miking happened in a way that it was at a position that is not ideal for my taste, or not at the volume set.

So all in all, even if I feel there is a lack of space, and there are certain things which I would have done differently, I would listen to this song again, and similar sounding tunes, because even this way as it is, nothing is too annoying. However I have to note that I like to sound of my song much more. And I don't say this because own stuff comes first. That song in not the best tune I have worked on. But still as it is mixed, it has much more space, and is much more pleasing to my ear. It is charming me more to listen to it again. I would miss its character if that went missing.The bass is also much better, bigger so to say: it is filling the room. The Toyah song has a more moderate bass, but something that I really like,is that it is so steady, constant. I often have a problem with mixing bass for our songs that the bass is bulging very often, other times it is way more silent, so quite random.

[James Perrett]

The bass is also much better, bigger so to say: it is filling the room. The Toyah song has a more moderate bass, but something that I really like,is that it is so steady, constant. I often have a problem with mixing bass for our songs that the bass is bulging very often, other times it is way more silent, so quite random.

I suggested that song because I'm very familiar with the mix and I use it when I'm checking out unfamiliar systems. It was based on a previous vocal mix but in some ways it is better quality than the original because it comes directly from the 30ips 2" tape.

It is very common to compress the bass to make it more constant and they may have done that when recording the Toyah track although there is no compression on the bass in the mix.

One thing that I've learned from your comments is that you love bass. That's fine when you are mixing for yourself but you are going to have to accept that it won't work when you are mixing for a commercial release that has to work on different playback systems. There are tricks that you can use to increase the apparent amount of bass (like boosting around 120-150Hz rather than boosting the low bass, or compressing the whole mix so that the level dips slightly when the bass comes along) but you have to accept that there is a limit to how much low bass you can add to a mix if you want people to be able to listen to your mix on a typical sound system.

[Sam Spoons]

Have you considered mixing for the average but eq-ing your 'HiFi' to regain the areas that you have to lose to make the mix work on lesser systems? In simple terms, reduce the bass in the mix so it works on phone speakers then turn the bass up on the HiFi the regain the same sound?

[bencuri]

Have you considered mixing for the average but eq-ing your 'HiFi' to regain the areas that you have to lose to make the mix work on lesser systems? In simple terms, reduce the bass in the mix so it works on phone speakers then turn the bass up on the HiFi the regain the same sound?

I tried EQ-ing before, but not on my own productions. On other productions that sounded bad on HiFi. They did not really work. The method that worked better is to split the track in something like Lalal.ai and "remix" the whole thing from the "stems" received. So I gave up on EQ-ing.

On the other hand: does bass really a matter on phones? As I experienced it doesn't matter how you mix it, because low quality systems simply cannot project it well, on phone built is speakers the bass line is often inaudible if harmonics are EQ-ed down. So why worry about the bass when considering phones?

[tea for two]

I often have a problem with mixing bass for our songs that the bass is bulging very often, other times it is way more silent, so quite random.

There's a current discussion multiband compression, dynamic eq. Would be worth a look.
https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... hp?t=92802

On the other hand: does bass really a matter on phones? As I experienced it doesn't matter how you mix it, because low quality systems simply cannot project it well, on phone built is speakers the bass line is often inaudible if harmonics are EQ-ed down. So why worry about the bass when considering phones?

Mory Kante : Nanfoulen.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PN1q_RrO_ ... J5IGthbnRl
Which phone do you have.
Your phone speakers should fairly readily let you hear the Bass. On my elcheapo samsung a52 stereo speakers the Bass is readily heard.

when we listened to albums from this genre in the studio on active monitors and passive HiFi speakers, the difference was very big even on official releases from this genre. On the studio monitors it sounded okay, then we switched to the passive HiFi, and it sounded awful.

To check Bass level of a mix on home hifi speakers I would suggest a speakers set that has a Subwoofer. Approx £50 Harman Kardon Soundsticks with Subwoofer spec says goes down to 45Hz I have this, it's more a desktop speaker set. You can listen to commercial released songs Bass on such with Subwoofer thereafter compare how your mixes Bass sounds on it, as well as your overall mix compares to commercial releases.

[bencuri]

I often have a problem with mixing bass for our songs that the bass is bulging very often, other times it is way more silent, so quite random.

There's a current discussion multiband compression, dynamic eq. Would be worth a look.
https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... hp?t=92802

On the other hand: does bass really a matter on phones? As I experienced it doesn't matter how you mix it, because low quality systems simply cannot project it well, on phone built is speakers the bass line is often inaudible if harmonics are EQ-ed down. So why worry about the bass when considering phones?

Mory Kante : Nanfoulen.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PN1q_RrO_ ... J5IGthbnRl
Which phone do you have.
Your phone speakers should fairly readily let you hear the Bass. On my elcheapo samsung a52 stereo speakers the Bass is readily heard.

when we listened to albums from this genre in the studio on active monitors and passive HiFi speakers, the difference was very big even on official releases from this genre. On the studio monitors it sounded okay, then we switched to the passive HiFi, and it sounded awful.

To check Bass level of a mix on home hifi speakers I would suggest a speakers set that has a Subwoofer. Approx £50 Harman Kardon Soundsticks with Subwoofer spec says goes down to 45Hz I have this, it's more a desktop speaker set. You can listen to commercial released songs Bass on such with Subwoofer thereafter compare how your mixes Bass sounds on it, as well as your overall mix compares to commercial releases.

I have Blackberry Q10 and Huawei P9, iPad 4, none projects the bass. Only the higher notes, but the low part of the fretboard, no. Obviously if you set the harmonics high, it can, but that is not something you want to do all the time.

[tea for two]

I have Blackberry Q10 and Huawei P9, iPad 4, none projects the bass. Only the higher notes, but the low part of the fretboard, no. Obviously if you set the harmonics high, it can, but that is not something you want to do all the time.

The issues with your mixes been mentioned several thymes on this thread by several foruumees.
Have a re-read of page1.
Also have a read of the current multiband compression thread on this forum.

As I wrote in my previous post if you are going to check your mix on hifi speakers worthwhile getting a hifi speaker set with Subwoofer to hear Bass comparing your mix to commercially released.

Take care. All the best.

[bencuri]

I have Blackberry Q10 and Huawei P9, iPad 4, none projects the bass. Only the higher notes, but the low part of the fretboard, no. Obviously if you set the harmonics high, it can, but that is not something you want to do all the time.

The issues with your mixes been mentioned several thymes on this thread by several foruumees.
Have a re-read of page1.
Also have a read of the current multiband compression thread on this forum.

As I wrote in my previous post if you are going to check your mix on hifi speakers worthwhile getting a hifi speaker set with Subwoofer to hear Bass comparing your mix to commercially released.

Take care. All the best.

I don't really get this. Why getting the subwoofer? I guess to increase bass on the HiFi. But so far I got responses that my HiFi is boosting the bass, and my mix is low on bass. Also on many problematic releases that I have, the bass feels too much on my HiFi. So I find a Subwoofer contraproductive in my case.

[Sam Spoons]

Have you considered mixing for the average but eq-ing your 'HiFi' to regain the areas that you have to lose to make the mix work on lesser systems? In simple terms, reduce the bass in the mix so it works on phone speakers then turn the bass up on the HiFi the regain the same sound?

I tried EQ-ing before, but not on my own productions. On other productions that sounded bad on HiFi. They did not really work. The method that worked better is to split the track in something like Lalal.ai and "remix" the whole thing from the "stems" received. So I gave up on EQ-ing.

I think the point that is being made by me and others is that if your mixes sound good on studio monitors and acceptable on phones, iPads etc but bad on your HiFi then it is the HiFi that is at fault not the mix?

[MarkOne]

Doesn't it come back to "Do commercial releases sound good on your hifi. when your mixes don't?"

If they do, have you thought of using something like FabFilter Pro-Q 3 or iZotope RX 11 to see what their match EQ feature thinks is the big difference between your mix and the commercial mix EQ-wise. It might give you an insight into where the issue lies?

[bencuri]

Have you considered mixing for the average but eq-ing your 'HiFi' to regain the areas that you have to lose to make the mix work on lesser systems? In simple terms, reduce the bass in the mix so it works on phone speakers then turn the bass up on the HiFi the regain the same sound?

I tried EQ-ing before, but not on my own productions. On other productions that sounded bad on HiFi. They did not really work. The method that worked better is to split the track in something like Lalal.ai and "remix" the whole thing from the "stems" received. So I gave up on EQ-ing.

I think the point that is being made by me and others is that if your mixes sound good on studio monitors and acceptable on phones, iPads etc but bad on your HiFi then it is the HiFi that is at fault not the mix?

Agree. But it it is a complex situation that is going on.I noticed that this genre I deal with, it is always problematic on HiFi. While other popular music that people usually listen to is not (rock, pop, jazz, classical, etc). The latter is usually never a problem when you change platform to listen to, why? Why the big difference in case of the recent project then, and its genre. This is what I am trying to understand. I did not mention every detail about it, though. I want to open another thread on this topic discussing the problem in case of official releases. Maybe then it will be easier to draw conclusion.

[bencuri]

Doesn't it come back to "Do commercial releases sound good on your hifi. when your mixes don't?"

If they do, have you thought of using something like FabFilter Pro-Q 3 or iZotope RX 11 to see what their match EQ feature thinks is the big difference between your mix and the commercial mix EQ-wise. It might give you an insight into where the issue lies?

No. As mentioned in the previous comment: official releases from the most popular genres in the world are very rarely a problem (or serious problem) on my HiFi and other HiFi. The genre which my song comes from is almost always a problem on the HiFi. I got fed up with this, mixed the whole thing for the HiFi this time, and now the rest of equipments is the problem not the HiFi. Because of this oddity I started this thread.

[James Perrett]

Doesn't it come back to "Do commercial releases sound good on your hifi. when your mixes don't?"

I think we've established that commercial mixes with a sensible amount of bass don't sound good on the hifi. Only mixes with excessive bass sound good on the hifi.

[bencuri]

Doesn't it come back to "Do commercial releases sound good on your hifi. when your mixes don't?"

I think we've established that commercial mixes with a sensible amount of bass don't sound good on the hifi. Only mixes with excessive bass sound good on the hifi.

So just to clarify everything that was mentioned up to now, you say in your opinion my system is short on bass and I need to get a subwoofer to boost it, and the balance between the bass-mid-lows will be closer to the industry standard than at the moment?

[James Perrett]

So just to clarify everything that was mentioned up to now, you say in your opinion my system is short on bass and I need to get a subwoofer to boost it, and the balance between the bass-mid-lows will be closer to the industry standard than at the moment?

From your comments about my Toyah mix (which I felt was close to the industry standard) the issue is either with your hifi or with how much bass you feel is correct. Maybe if your hifi had more low bass then your mixes might be better balanced but it is very hard to tell for sure from a distance. It may also be that your listening position is less than ideal. If you try listening closer to the back wall of your room you will probably hear the bass increase significantly.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Yes, I was going to say the problem could easily be down to the room and/or the positions of speakers or listening position. In such conditions a subwoofer is unlikely to help and could even make things worse.

The sensible approach here is to get the hi-fi sounding properly balanced on good commercial material, which might involve moving things around, improving the room acoustic treatment, or changing the speakers.

And then you'll be able to produce mixers to match.

[bencuri]

This is interesting in 2 ways, but I tend to agree with you in this case unlike with the others.

I am discussing this elsewhere too, and I got the reply that my system is low on bass, and I should add more, because HiFi is boosting bass and highs by nature, so if I mix on HiFi, on more natural systems it will be low on bass and highs. But I think at the moment it is the opposite, I agree with you on that.

Secondly, even if the system might be short on bass, the African productions I listen to tend to have too much bass, even for this system, and that is what confused me as well and further complicated the case. But that topic is for another occasion, no need to 'mix' that in now.

I don' think the room etc. is a problem, the amp or the speakers themselves can have a certain character that can make factory releases not sounding ideal.

But it doesn't matter, because I seem to have found a shortcut to address the problem with the recent mix. I went to the audiophile store today, and I found a pair of speakers there, that are new arrivals. These:
https://en.elipson.com/product-page/legacy-3220

I listened to my song on it, and it had way too much bass, to the point that it was disturbing. First I thought the massive speakers overboost the bass by nature, but then I listened to this CD, and interestingly it sounded awesome on those speakers:
The Essential Santana
https://tidal.com/browse/album/4917660

I brought that CD home to test on my system, and I experienced the same thing as in case of that Toyah song that James linked: it sounded okay but not very interesting, and short on bass and space.

So, according to this, I think those Elipson speakers might be good as a reference for factory standards, considering the Santana album sounded pretty good on them. So I will try to take the laptop, adjust the mix on those speakers. That way the whole thing should get closer to the factory standards. Then I will listen and if it performs similarly like the Santana album on other platforms, I will leave it like that. And I will keep the recent mix for myself to listen to on my system, and that's it. In the future I want to buy a pair of Dynaudio monitors, until then this solution might work. I think this will be an ideal solution.

[bencuri]

So just to clarify everything that was mentioned up to now, you say in your opinion my system is short on bass and I need to get a subwoofer to boost it, and the balance between the bass-mid-lows will be closer to the industry standard than at the moment?

From your comments about my Toyah mix (which I felt was close to the industry standard) the issue is either with your hifi or with how much bass you feel is correct. Maybe if your hifi had more low bass then your mixes might be better balanced but it is very hard to tell for sure from a distance. It may also be that your listening position is less than ideal. If you try listening closer to the back wall of your room you will probably hear the bass increase significantly.

May I ask you, James, to read my previous comment, and listen to a few minutes of that Santana album I mentioned there? And can you let me know if you find that production okay, because as I wrote I would use it as a reference.

[James Perrett]

May I ask you, James, to read my previous comment, and listen to a few minutes of that Santana album I mentioned there? And can you let me know if you find that production okay, because as I wrote I would use it as a reference.

I had a quick listen and compared it to another Santana compilation that I have here and felt that the one you have suffers from being mastered too loud and harshly. I'd suggest finding an older CD with the same songs on it if you want to hear the subtleties of the songs better. It would probably work as a rough guide to the bass level but not as a reference for the overall sound due to the harsh mastering - though that's just my own personal opinion from being familiar with the way those songs sound on other albums.