Time aligment when recording drums ? How the hell people did it before digital ?

[malhomme]

HEllo gentlemen...

I ma just in the process of learning to record my drums...

Being first a guitar player, my recording life was easy.

Now that I venture into multi-micked instrument, it gets far more complicated.

First : due to little money avalable I have a Thomann microphone set (DC-4000).
I really dislike it... But that is what I have.
I could at least replace the absolutely awful electret overhead with a pair of old AT30xx I had for years...

Second.. For the moment in really tried a bass drum microphone and a pair of overhead with or without a snare microphone.
Trying more (toms) resulted in a total unmanageable mess.

Third: the core question. My overheads are either an AB couple or an ORTF couple... No question here, BUT there a really nasty time lag between what comes from the overheads and what comes from any other microphone...

The more microphone I use (let us say 4 OH, BD, Snare), the more messy it is.
Since All microphones record the HH that spills everywhere, I couldn't find a way to control it.
It means 4 version of the HH coming at 4 different timing.

I just wonder hos one used to control this when everything was analog.
I mean IF I stay with 3 microphones (BD et OH) I can move the files in my sequencer so to sync again the sound.

Obviously things are not only about choosing the right microphones and placing (which is fairly difficult enough).

Any help is welcome...

Regards

Olivier

[Ted Kendall]

Short answer is they didn't, at least not in the literal sense. Basically there are two ways to record a kit - (a) let the sound happen in a decent room and use as few mics as will capture that sound or (b) go in close on each element. Trouble is, once you've pulled the sound to pieces you have to put it back together, and if your separation isn't adequate the thing descends into an unmanageable mess, as you have found. The time-delay thing is a bit of a red herring, because even if you optimise the delay for one element, the others will be out, and it's perfectly possible to get a good kit sound without it.

[Jack Ruston]

The art of recording drums is all about the relationships between the various mics, and the room.

It is reasonably common to time align some elements of the kit...Some people do kicks and snares, but generally toms are the most likely thing to be messed about with. It's also quite common to delay room mics a bit to create a greater sense of size. The 'old school' way of doing this was to use delay lines. You would just put a 4ms (or whatever) delay on the close mics to make them line up with the overhead more favourably.

J

[malhomme]

Thanks for the answers...

Both replies points me in different solutions to explore...
I was considering that I failed to find any solution.

The worst of all remain the HH.
Even in close miking situation, I couldn't avoid HH spill everywhere...
It sort becomes the focus of time discrepancies

[Jack Ruston]

1. Get the drummer to hit the hats soft, but the snare hard. A lot of this stuff is down to the drummer.

2. Experiment with different sets of hats if you can.

3. Move the hats as far from the snare as the drummer will tolerate. So go left and up.

4. Experiment with the angle of both snare and hat mics to reduce spill between the two.

5. See if moving the overheads closer to the kit results in a more defined sound.

6. Try losing the hat mic, and using a spaced pair .

7. Try deadening the immediate area around the kit so that you're not getting a lot of reflections. Ideally you might want a reasonably dead end of the room with the kit in it, and then room mics in a live area at the other end of the room.

J

[Scope]

I have to smile ( sorry guys! )
But there is a clear knowledge gap between the generations here.
Recording and mixing drums is an art and the quality of an engineer was often judged by his drum sound.

Sadly, new technology and different work practices ( ie using loops ) has meant a lot of these skills have not been passed on to you younger folk.

so thanks for making me feel good !!

On a more practical note -

Why are you getting a delay ?
Seriosuly, just how far away are your O/h mics ??

Looking at the maths
( I know, its hard for a people who have everything handed to them on a plate, and then there's Google.... )

Sound travels at 1085 feet per second, so you should not notice any significant delay up to several feet away - which would be too far for O/H mics.

To keep the numbers simple assume the speed of sound is 1000 ft/ps
then a 1 foot space = 1 millisecond.
( we old farts love all this stuff.... )

Most humans can notice a delay of 10 milliseconds, so keep you mics under 10 feet away.

If you are trying to capture cymbals, then 3-5 feet is sufficient.

simple..

Different mics offer different polar-patterns, use these pic-up differences to you advantage when choosing a mic for a specific job.

You did mention you are limited in what you can afford and this will affect your technical ability, but it should not affect your creative ability, so until you have the cash for better mics *( which will happen no doubt, I recommend you experiment as much as possible.

I have thought about running seminars covering just this field, to help those who have not been engineering for years and / or have not had the opportunity to learn and try out these techniques.
Anyone interested PM me.

I am not sure what the rules are regarding mentioning this so, if this a breach, please inform me and feel free to remove this post.

[Jack Ruston]

The delay's incurred between overheads and close mics are certainly noticable...not as a discrete echo, but as a 'spreading' of the transient. That's why time aligning drums sounds so different, for better or for worse.

I imagine that what the OP is referring to is the problem where the hats seem to get into every mic, and therefore come from everywhere, rather than staying 'in their box'.

J

[Doublehelix]

You may not notice the delay as a discrete echo, but there will be a "smeariness" to the audio, even from a 5-6 ms delay. The 10 ms "rule of thumb" applies to hearing a discrete delay.

[Steve Hill]

Someone (possibly Glyn Johns?) said one of the reasons Led Zep sounded so huge was that on the big chords they actually used the fact that the drum hits were fractionally spread out, rather than all directly on the beat - sort of a drum arpeggio kind of thing. Bonham's playing deliberately enhanced this effect. They also used the fact that the bass and guitar might not be dead on the beat to exaggerate the effect further.

I think a lot of this micro-aligning everything to a grid is pointless: we only started doing it when screens gave us a visual means to do so. People who recorded with their ears never cared much one way or the other, as long as it sounded good.

[Jack Ruston]

Agreed.

J

[IvanSC]

Full circle back to my "Why cant anybody groove any more" thread.
Even if they can, some bloody engineer will cut n paste it till it looks right in the Protools edit page....

If it aint broke, don`t fix it.

In this case OP it is prolly your carp playing that is making it sound messy.
And yes I know I`m being ultra-direct again, but since this IS the most likely cause, assuming his problem is real and not just engineer perfectionist disease, someone needs t point him in what is not only possibly but very likely the right direction.

My first record was made in a large untreated room with a philips pro 1/4" 15ips mono machine and two count `em TWO mics for everything.
We didnt have a delay available so picked up the vocal from our PA system complete with built in spring reverb and Binson tape echo.
The result sounded just like what it was.
A goodish rock and roll band performing well.
Second mic.by the way, was just pointed up in the air in the middle of the room.
Plenty of bass drum and everything else, and the engineer got the balance using mic placement.

Did four songs and the mic positions were changed slightly for each on, btw.
Results were cut to vinyl and the small production run was sold out.
Nobody complained about the alignment of the drums, either.

P.S. Drummer was a very, very young Willie Wilson of SBQ, Dave Gilmour 1st solo album and Pink Floyd fame.

[malhomme]

Waow... Lots of stuff to answer and to weight...

So, is the drummer partly responsible, yes of coure (it is me), I have two years of drumming behind me..

Regarding delay, spills..As it was pointed, yes the HH isn't in it's box. But a snare microphone will take a lot of HH.
And the overhead also. Even the bass drum microphone picks up the HH.

In that case, i have up to 5-6 ms delay between all "versions of the HH" and it doesn't only spread transients, it obvoulsly sounds echoey just because the both signal are summed.
If you use a small delays (4 ms) to spread guitars (I sometimes do) in the stereo field, it is easy to identify which one is late.

I have indeed very little to experiment with microphone wise. (in fact I have nothing save this DC4000 set)
Then it is all to experiment in moving the microphones...

The less i use of them, the better the result.

Overhead are about 2 meters high from the snare... which makes more or less sense for the about 6 ms I feel.

I lake to pan differently HH from the snare (in fact I always pan drum from the drummer perspective.

This is just impossible here...

[Random Guitarist]

it is prolly your carp playing

Would you suggest he focuses more on scales?

[Wonks]

it is prolly your carp playing

Would you suggest he focuses more on scales?

No, he's French, not a Finn.

[Scope]

2 mics you say Ivan ?

We'd have been happy with a cup of tea,

cold tea,

without milk or sugar.................

( I think you know where this is going )

[AridStarling]

So the problem is your hat is spilling? So? Take away the hat mic if you're using one. Then get your placement right. Use the "recorderman" technique (I'll let you google it). Its simple and it works. Start with that, get them sounding right, and then add your close mics, kick, snare and toms, in that order. Pan the overheads and the toms to taste. You shouldn't need much after that. Don't worry about aligning things on a screen or anything like that, just listen.

Oh and to Scope who said that these things haven't gotten passed on to the youth, I'm 18, I know how to record drums. I can send you samples if you want.

[malhomme]

No the problem isn't spilling per se.
The problem is timing discrepancies between microphone.
The fact that there is spilling from the HH everywhere tends to focus this timing issues on the HH, but that is just the obvious example.

As for the John Glyn's technique, I was aware of this...
My three microphone (if using 3) set up is overheads placed about 2 meters high with measures made to ensure there is exactly the same distance between snare and both microphones (I was introuduced to this reading... Sound on Sound !)

I couldn't find a way to exactly have the distance equal for both snare and BD beater.

But if we open up that box, I think it works only in a really controlled (sonic wise ) environment.

I mean , listen @ 1 meter your monitors and you already get 50% monitor sound and 50% room reflexions.

At about 1,5 m from the snare, the microphones dont really pick up any direct sound...

[Jack Ruston]

Its too ambient. If you're hearing echoes rather than 'smear' your overheads are perhaps too high for the room you're recording in. As I mentioned earlier on, dry the room up a bit, lower the mics, and hit the hat gently.

[adrian_k]

I mean , listen @ 1 meter your monitors and you already get 50% monitor sound and 50% room reflexions.

you mean you're mixing in an untreated room!?

[The Elf]

I couldn't find a way to exactly have the distance equal for both snare and BD beater.

It's an obscure, arcane technique called 'a piece of string'!

Just hold a length of string between the kick and snare and find where it meets your ideal first mic position, then use exactly the same place on the string to position the second mic. One mic usually ends up somewhere behind the drummer's right shoulder (on a right-handed kit).

It looks odd, but it does work.

I've only just started using the method, but the results are surprisingly good.

[malhomme]

I use a meter in fact...

I'll go into lowering the OH as much as I can (there is a percussion set behind me).

Of course, I'm considering also trying to buy new microphones, but I have to hone my skills first of all (besides the money issue, of course)

[Spyder2]

The idea with the string is that it is attached at one end to the middle of the snare and at the other end to the beater position on the kick drum. You slide your finger along the string to a mid-position, then pivot to the left for one mic, then pivot the loop to the right (with out sliding along the string) to the other mic position - so both mics are equidistant to both snare and kick drum. You can't do that with a metre rule!
(You can put your finger at other positions on the string and the distances will be matched in left and right OH but not snare to kick, this can still sound good.)
The Glynn Johns technique is also known as the Recorderman technique and there are youtube videos of doing this setup.

[malhomme]

Thanks to all. I stand totally corrected.
I had not understood properly obviously.
Or more properly put, my command of english made me miss part of the information...

I used a ruler just to adjust mic distance for the center of the snare trying to find a position where it would also have been working setting the ruler on the beater position (which didn't so I focused on snare distance).

[Spyder2]

Bonne chance with your string! youtube

[malhomme]

Thanks to all I have some reports to do...

As it wasn't said, my ceiling is low, abour 2,2 meters.
So I'm totally into the area of use of this technique...

I preparated the string, lowering the microphones about 40 cm above the level of my shoulders...

Put my BD pick up, and tried this side method for the snare one, et let us fire the record button...

So what do I get ?
Frist the bad news.. the snare sound itself is so awful it feels like it was recorded on a cell phone...
Awful... I'm afraid this method doesn't wotk with both my snare and my microphone...

As for the rest:
The result of the overheads is balanced, full of air and detail with a sweet stereo panning.

A very interesting result. But the result lacks energy. It would be absolutely perfect for jazz but would not be suited for rock.

About HH spills: did better the things ? I 'm afraid not.
The HH feels like it's coming from everywhere (again).
Timing issues are not totally solved either...

Taken separately, the OH provide a great sound.
Adding a little extra edge with the snare channel will result in a slight doubling. Just a little slap back...
The HH from the snare channel would not come at the same time. It should be too small to be noticed, BUT, when both are superimpposed it is clearly heard and it is an unpleasant mismatch...