MIDI Confused

[Will Evans]

Hi there,

Recently I thought it would be useful to tidy up my home studio and particularly put away numerous MIDI keyboards which were cluttering up a lot of space. I like to use a number of MIDI sound modules which I find have a few favourite sounds that I can't live without, as well as Cubase for recording MIDI and audio.

Having recently bought a full weighted 88 key Fatar VMK 188 MIDI keyboard which is great to play and which works fine with the sound modules, it seemed the best option to use as my sole MIDI keyboard, although this keyboard does not have any in-built sound sources.

The vmk 188 was reviewed in SOS as well as a couple of it's relatives the Fatar NUMA and VMK176 Plus, and generally the verdict was that it was very playable, although not the best for navigating or editing the MIDI set-up. None the less, an option as a MIDI master keyboard.

So, here's my dilemma; the Fatar range of MIDI master keyboards have two MIDI OUT sockets and a USB which also appears to serve as two MIDI outputs when connected to the PC. There are no MIDI INPUT or THRU sockets. Where I have a problem is getting the keyboard to work with Cubase and the sound modules ie using the vmk 188 as a MIDI master keyboard.

The specific problem is that while I can get MIDI into Cubase and record the MIDI data by using one of the vmk 800 outputs (MIDI or USB), and also get MIDI from the keyboard to the sound modules using one of keyboard MIDI outputs, I cannot see how to get the MIDI recorded into Cubase to then play the sound modules without swapping the MIDI cables round. The MIDI output from the vkm 188 uses the MIDI input into the sound modules so how can the MIDI output from Cubase be input into the sound modules?

Normally for Cubase or any MIDI program, it is managed by plugging the MIDI output from Cubase into the MIDI input of the keyboard, and then the MIDI thru of the keyboard into the MIDI input of the sound module.

If you draw a simple block diagram with:

1. Cubase INPUT, OUTPUT
2. Keyboard OUTPUT
3. Sound Module INPUT, OUTPUT, THRU

The question is where does the Cubase OUTPUT go?

The Keyboard OUTPUTs plug into the Cubase INPUT and Sound Module INPUT so these are used. The only way I can see to play MIDI from Cubase is to unplug Sound Module INPUT (which is being used by the Keyboard OUTPUT) and then re-patch the Cubase OUTPUT into the Sound Module INPUT. This works of course, but all the MIDI connections are around the back of the units and access is a problem in my set up (and I would suggest most users). Surely there must be some better way otherwise you can't really use the vmk 188 as a MIDI master keyboard (in my view) and it does not appear to support the basic set up with Cubase (or any other MIDI program). I'm sure I must be overlooking something really simple so my apologies if I am missing the point somewhere - it just appears really odd that I can't see how to plug the vkm 188 into a simple MIDI set up.

Any advice would be very welcome. Thanks for reading this to the end.

Will

[tomafd]

I'm on a Mac, Logic, and lucky enough to have a MOTU midi timepiece with a plethora of midi connections ... but on my system, the output of the master keyboard (which can be any one of all the keyboards on the system) isn't directly connected to any other keyboard (unless i specifically make that connection on the motu)

Basically, Logic acts as the midi thru. The output of any keyboard is patched into Logic (via its input on the MOTU and then to Logic), and I'm 'playing' a representation (ie, a midi track in Logic) of any one of the keyboards, selected by calling up a midi track that's assigned to an 'object' in Logic which Logic has been told is a real-life midi keyboard. If I play live, the data from the master is played via Logic to the keyboard/module/whatever. Logic handles the assignment and the data is output to the correct midi output on the MOTU, and then to the keyboard in question. If I happen to put the track into record, then whatever I played live is played to the keyboard by Logic. Whether live or recorded, the data is always coming 'from' Logic, even if played live on a master keyboard and not recorded.

So.... as far as I can see, it should be the same for you... and you should be able to set up a chain, starting at Cubase's output, which is connected to the input of one of your modules and then chained via thrus to the rest. Midi tracks (I assume) in Cubase should then handle the appropriate assignment of which data goes to which module, and you'll play the modules (and hear them, either live or recorded) via Cubase, not by a direct connection from the Fatar to the modules.

So it's

Fatar midi out > Cubase

Cubase midi out > midi in of first module>thru of that module > midi in of next module and so on

Cubase should be acting as a midi thru for playing the modules live from the Fatar. Quite why it isn't, in your system, I'm afraid you'll have to ask someone who uses it.

[Richie Royale]

Either do as Tomafd says and you have tried, plug th output of the keyboard into Cubase and use the output from cubase to go to the first sound module and chain that way. Or if you wan tot have access to the modules without having Cubase on you could get a MIDI thru splitter box. That way you can use your modules without having to go through cubase, but will also be able to record your notes into cubase when you want to.

[Will Evans]

Hi there,

Thanks to Tom and Richie for the advice, and just to let you know that yes; using Cubase (or I guess any PC DAW) as a MIDI THRO works.

This appears to be the only solution without adding a MIDI device with additional MIDI IN sockets (ie at least 2x MIDI IN).

This for me (and I guess for many small studios) is a problem as Richie highlighted. When you do not wish to start your PC and Cubase, or if your DAW is on a laptop and this is elsewhere - you have to re-route your MIDI leads.

To get the keyboard to work with the sound modules when the DAW is not active it is necessary to take the MIDI lead out of your sound module MIDI IN (which is coming from the PC interface), unplug the other MIDI lead which is coming from the keyboard MIDI OUT into the PC interface MIDI IN and plug this into the sound module MIDI in. The MIDI connections are all around the back of the units which is not very accessible for me so this is a total pain!

I'm going to try a Motu FastLane 2x2 USB MIDI interface (which retails for about £60 and says it has "the unique advantage: a MIDI thru button allows you to play to your gear even when your computer is turned off-without having to disconnect cables"), and hopefully this should cure the problem. If you think this will not work please let me know.

Many thanks again for your advice.

The lesson for me - I do think anyone looking at using the Fatar keyboard range should be aware of this. I checked the Cubase Getting Started manual and sure enough; it shows what I would regard as the normal MIDI setup for a master keyboard; with the PC interface MIDI OUT from Cubase plugged in to the master keyboard MIDI IN as described in the opening post, and this is simply impossible with the Fatar keyboard. Having to buy an additional MIDI device should not be necessary in my opinion when you spend more than £400 (the cost of my Fatar VMK-188 Plus) on a "powerful MIDI controller ... with ultimate control over your MIDI software and modules".

Also just to give you a bit more of the storey; before posting this question in the forum I emailed both Fater and the retailer to query how to connect up the Fatar with Cubase. On first response it was clear that neither understood the question, and the second response (after emailing the more detailed description which was the text in the initial forum posting) it was even clearer that they had no clue what I was talking about!

Thanks again guys - I am no longer MIDI Confused (unless someone wishes to add another twist).

Cheers,

Will

PS If any of the SOS chaps read this, I do think it would be worth spelling this out if you review any MIDI master keyboards without MIDI IN and MIDI THRU.

[Will Evans]

Hi there,

Just to complete the picture on this; the Motu Fastlane arrived and is now plugged in.

It works in a different way than I had expected. There are two MIDI IN's and two MIDI OUT's on the Fastlane and my intention was simply to plug the MIDI OUT from the keyboard into the one of the Fastlane MIDI IN's and then route one MIDI OUT from the Fastlane to the DAW and the other MIDI OUT to the first sound module. This does not work however because the Fastlane has two completely seperate MIDI channels (A and B) and therefore whatever is plugged into the A channel MIDI IN will not be transmitted onto the B channel MIDI OUT. This appears to be true at all times including when in THRU mode (which works when the Fastlane is not plugged into a PC).

The way it does work however is to plug the keyboard MIDI OUT into the Fastlane MIDI IN (A) and then plug the Fastlane MIDI OUT (A) into the sound module MIDI IN. When the PC is not switched on there is a button on the front of the Fastlane that you press and even when the Fastlane is not powered via the USB the THRU function works and so the sound module receives the MIDI from the keyboard.

When the PC is switched on and the DAW is being used for recording and playing MIDI, the Fastlane MIDI IN and MIDI OUT also need to be selected in the DAW (as you would expect) so that the USB connection to the PC provides the MIDI connection into and out of the DAW.

A couple of comments on the Fastlane:

1) It did not come with any manual and I could not find one on the MOTU website (OK it is very basic but the separation of the channels A and B is not immediately obvious - and there are no specs - even a 1 pager would have been something)

2) There were no driver disks or anything so it was necessary to download the drivers from the website. I usually check this any way to get the latest drivers but still would be better to at least explain this somewhere.

3) I found the MIDI sockets needed plugs that were quite deep ie the outer metal part of the plug and the 5 pins needed to be quite long - some of my MIDI leads did not fit very securely.

4) The outer casing of the Fastlane is hard plastic which I get the feeling could well crack if you trod on it or dropped it onto a hard surface.

5) There is no software control application or console for routing/controlling MIDI (OK it is a basic device and I'm not sure I really wanted another bit of software).

6) The MIDI THRU is a very useful feature and this does mean I don't have to crawl around the back of sound modules when the PC is off - problem solved!

That's all folks!

Hope someone else finds this useful.

Cheers,

Will