What are the lowest Frequencies I need to be able to Monitor down to produce good bass heavy techno music?

[m_nus]

I'm just about to acoustically treat my room so I want to discuss monitors and producing techno music but I'm unsure of two things -

The frequency that's best to roll off he bottom end at in percussive techno / minimal music?

What frequencies the subs actually go down to in the best clubs (fabric london / space ibiza) etc ?

I need to budget and I'm trying to find out if I definitely need the extra lower end of 8 inch monitors, whether i'd need to go even further and get a sub, or neither. From my research most 8 inch monitors tend to go down to around 45 - 50 Hz and subs go down to around 30 - 40Hz.

What tends to be the lowest frequencies I will need to hear and monitor when making bass heavy music and what can be filtered out?

Cheers

[franciskimberley]

Having been mastering dance music for some time now I would recommend getting a sub. I presume if you're getting a sub, getting larger cones on your regular monitors isn't necessary. Systems in any big club will have subs to mash up your ankles and recreating that in your mixing environment is crucial if you want your mixes to translate well. I regularly get tracks that have obviously never been passed through a sub at the mixing stage and they're really easy to tell as there's normally some weirdness or "interesting" activity under the 40hz mark!

With regards a general roll off figure, I don't think there is one. Take it on a track by track basis. If you're mixing setup is good enough you should be able to make the best decision for that track. I may be getting the figures wrong with this but humans with average hearing struggle with most sounds below 30- 20hz, but I've found that if the music is played loud enough through a system with a decent sub you can, literally, feel some of those sub 30 - 20hz freqs. You gotta have the mixing skills to harness those freqs properly but them's the breaks.

So, yeah, I would recommend you get a sub. And then turn it up REALLY loud!

[Jonnypopisical]

Contrary to the previous post I think you need to be very careful with subs. The fact is that all clubs and a massively hyped bottom end with huge speakers and all sorts of electronic bass boosting filters/enhancers actively adding/boosting lower frequencies.

95% percent of my work (I'm a full time professional) is mixing music for clubs and I always roll of stuff below 30Hz - otherwise it just tends to sound like a rumble and detracts from any clarity. You are never going to make your studio sound like a club and trying too is, I think, the totally wrong approach. Get your mix to sound good on a decent set of studio speakers and they should translate to a club. The most important frequencies for bass/kick are 50-200Hz. If you do get a Sub make sure it is set up properly and not turned up full just for effect.

JP

[franciskimberley]

Fair points, JP, maybe I gave the wrong impression with my post. Mixing skills will always win over just working at high volume levels, but if dance music is what one does, trying to emulate the freqs you will find coming out of club speakers is worthwhile. Advising people to turn it up "REALLY loud" isn't the best advice, for sure... That's probably the masterer in me! And, er, the clubber...

I'd still advise to approach low end roll off on a track by track basis, and having a sub can really help you to decide when and how much is necessary.

Gettin a good sounding mix on any speakers is always the goal, but subs and dance music are good bedfellows.

[m_nus]

Thanks guys!

I guess with both posts in mind, I would be good to have a sub set up properly that I could also 'over' boost from time to time just to check is if anything nasty was going to be hyped on club speakers down at the bottom end, so I can get rid of it. Saying that some tracks I listen to do appear to have enormous bass even though I must not be hearing the lowest notes at home, so perhaps there are real diminishing returns when your get to below 40 hz - or would you say there is a lot of valuable energy to be had which can really translate into your tracks especially in the clubs?

With regards to the mixing skills you mention, I'm not sure I have too much experience to speak of there, especially as I probably can't hear these through my current monitors. Perhaps I should try some test tones. What specific mixing skills would I need to build when working with sub bass? I've been making music and learning for a couple of years but I've been mainly focusing on creating sounds and not the more technical side.

8 inch monitors and sub? 6 inch monitors and a sub? Does it make a difference?

I'm not really sure. What monitors or monitor/sub combo would you recommend for me? I'd say my top end price was about £1,000 in total (preferably a few hundred less). I guess if I was getting the sub It'd need to be a something around the £400 mark (KRK 10s, bluesky or adam sub8). The mackie 824s seem to have a decent low end going down to 35 hz but maybe a dedicated sub would handle better.

[jimbobbley]

i've often found the mackies to be a bit bass-heavy actually mr m_nus, and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone, so take care if you do go with them. mixes i've done on them often sound distinctly lacking on other, less 'hyped' speakers.

as someone else said before, realistically in terms of instruments you need to hear 50Hz and up for kicks but if you've got any mad subsonic effects going on then yes getting a sub is a good idea. there's really not much musical 'information' from 35Hz down, it's just a lot of brmrmrmrmmrmrmrmrmrmrmrmmm (technical term, obviously).

hugh's written loads of articles about setting subs up properly, give the main site a search and see what you dig up.. they're normally in studio SOS.

the trouble with bass in general is that, as you intend to address from your post, you need a room that can handle it and that won't produce room nodes (modes? god it's been a long time), artificially enforcing / undercutting certain frequencies. how big is your room, are you in the corner of a low-ceilinged spare room, is there space for a couple of bass traps, etc, all stuff you'd need to consider....

[Steve Hill]

To be honest having a room which does not flatter (or annul) specific bass frequencies is far more important.

I'd be very happy with Mackie HR824s in a suitable room - I'm listening to some now. My main monitoring system has a sub going down to 19Hz, but it's a bit of a luxury and (whilst I confess I don't specialise in club music) I get perfectly usable mixes without it. But the main reasons for that are the room, followed by the room, followed by the room.

Get that right and you can mix on Yamaha NS10s with confidence. Maybe even Auratones, although that may be stretching it a bit...